Penalty Stroke at Full Time

AndyGaut 7
ragyrascal 5
IRN BRU 5
Rutter 5
The.Rampage.Rado 5
JiMMM 5
Bulsara 4
juveniliahockey 4
shepdogg 4
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[keely]

The blowing of the whistle is very important if the penalty corner was awarded before the end of the game and the end occurs whilst it is set up then you have to play it. If the corner starts before the end of play then the final whistle ends the game and the corner is not played out.

NE14HOCKEY, if I'm understanding you correctly, your second sentence is incorrect. If the PC has begun when the clock goes to 0:00, it is played out and only ends under the circumstances described in 13.4 of the Rules of Hockey.

1. At what point did the game end.

Unless you had a watch on and was timing the match yourself, you don't know. The coaches don't know. The players don't know. You don't have evidence that the game was ended prematurely. Making mistakes with timing is one of the few grounds on which a team has a probability of success in appealing a match. It is not a judgment decision by the umpire (as was the PS decision), it's a technical issue. But since there's no evidence, there's no appeal.

This is why the entire coaching staff should be timing every match along with the umpires.

3. What would you expect the Home side to do if you were them.

Move on and focus on reforming the system that puts an umpire in the position that 50% of the time they're making a mistake, they're going to be called a cheat because they represent one of the clubs participating in that match.

[controller]

Thanks RED and I don't think you were on a rant, as ever a great explanation of the rules and the interpretation of them

[controller]

1. At what point did the game end.

Unless you had a watch on and was timing the match yourself, you don't know. The coaches don't know. The players don't know. You don't have evidence that the game was ended prematurely. Making mistakes with timing is one of the few grounds on which a team has a probability of success in appealing a match. It is not a judgment decision by the umpire (as was the PS decision), it's a technical issue. But since there's no evidence, there's no appeal.

This is why the entire coaching staff should be timing every match along with the umpires.

3. What would you expect the Home side to do if you were them.

Move on and focus on reforming the system that puts an umpire in the position that 50% of the time they're making a mistake, they're going to be called a cheat because they represent one of the clubs participating in that match.
[/quote]

But, on the timing issue, if you have indicated 2 minutes to go, and both teams saw that signal but then for that 2 minutes to disappear so soon must cause concern. If less than two minutes left then indicate less, that way players, coaching staff and spectators will not expect 2 minutes then get less.
Technical issue, but you do expect umpires to be fair and equal 99% of the time in their decisions.

The tea, has moved on and I will commend them on their comments about the game, they decided not to fully complained about the umpire but have made comments in how to manage the situation better for them and for the umpire. Though, he did not read the comments after the game as he had left I think he would understand what the ladies had written and why?

The senior club member was myself but I think that was the easy bit to work out, we are doing our best to get the club to accept the umpires decision and we have now 31 umpires (level one) in the club out of 125 members.
The ladies involved understand the reasons as I explained that if it continued the umpire could of reported them under match misconduct especially the one shout, " bloody hell, I hope he does not think that two minutes is like having sex" then he got no chance with me!!

[Diligent]

The rule says "A goal cannot be scored [from a PC] until the ball has travelled outside the circle" (13.3.j).  It does not say "A shot at goal cannot be made until the ball has travelled outside the circle."  Anyone who says anything different is, I'm afraid, just plain wrong.

It's strange how an experimental Rule that only lasted one year (1 Jan to 31 Dec 2004) should survive so long in the minds of so many participants?

As to the OP:
1. If it is likely the game would end during the playing of the PC, it's usual to blow for time early. It's unfortunate when too much time is allowed, and a quick PC ends before the 35 minutes.
2. Yes the PS could be for intentional offence affecting attack's possession.
3. Really not much the Home team can do. Don't give away late PCs. Realise that arguing with a rattled umpire makes decisions worse not better. Get the points back next week.

When someone says an umpire is biased or has cheated, it's never that simple. What happens is that umpiring the same team every week causes blind spots to develop, and some scenarios (common in other hockey) are never practised. Players get to know what they can get away with, and the umpire stops seeing certain little things. So while the umpire thinks their decisions are right, they start looking biased to others.

It doesn't need the sledgehammer remedy of 'banning' team umpires. It would probably be enough to rotate every club umpire around different teams, so as to regularly work with respected partners. That's difficult for a small club, but perhaps they can set up an exchange with neighbouring clubs?

[NE14HOCKEY]

The blowing of the whistle is very important if the penalty corner was awarded before the end of the game and the end occurs whilst it is set up then you have to play it. If the corner starts before the end of play then the final whistle ends the game and the corner is not played out.

NE14HOCKEY, if I'm understanding you correctly, your second sentence is incorrect. If the PC has begun when the clock goes to 0:00, it is played out and only ends under the circumstances described in 13.4 of the Rules of Hockey.

No I mean if the corner started say at 00:00:10 then the whistle ends the game at 00:00:00 not when the corner breaks down/ball leaves the D uncontrolled etc. To end the game so it has to be played out is cheating in my book if time had not run out at the point he blew.

[philthy]

But then we'd NEVER get overtime PCs.. because the chances of a PC being conceded just as the umpire is raising the whistle to his lips to blow fulltime is pretty minimal...

So, if it's close to the end then it's perfectly reasonable to blow time and allow the PC to be played.

You never end the game mid-PC. Just like most umpires wouldn't blow full time just as an attacker was lifting their stick to shoot...

[deegum]

When someone says an umpire is biased or has cheated, it's never that simple. What happens is that umpiring the same team every week causes blind spots to develop, and some scenarios (common in other hockey) are never practised.

How true about the blind spots.I did most of my umpiring as a club umpire, there being no " independent " umpires. I, also in a small association, umpired the other teams often.
( The other side of the coin to blind spots was represented by the call" WAIT till I DO  it before you blow, deegum"   )
 It was a real pleasure to occasionally  get a game with no one I knew playing.
as to bias. There is a difference between bias and cheating. I know one excellent umpire who was horrendously biased towards his own team.
But standing  with him watching that team playing, one wondered what match he was watching.

He genuinely did not see any faults with " his team"
Sorry for a bit off topic., I hate umpires being accused of cheating..... as opposed to " honest bias" a much less heinous crime.

[David_Underdown]

No NE14HOCKEY (as Philthy says), the game always continues until the end of a PC as defined in the rules.  Umpires will usually blow before the PC starts to indicate that the overtime provisions are in operation, but there is nothing in the rules that states they must do this.  The half cannot end whilst a PC is in progress.

[deegum]

The rule, ne14: ( surprised no one quoted it.)
13.4 The match is prolonged at half-time and full-time to allow completion of a penalty corner or any subsequent penalty corner or penalty stroke

[redumpire]

No I mean if the corner started say at 00:00:10 then the whistle ends the game at 00:00:00 not when the corner breaks down/ball leaves the D uncontrolled etc. To end the game so it has to be played out is cheating in my book if time had not run out at the point he blew.

Going to have to add my voice to the consensus here NE1.  A PC should be played out at the end of either half of the game, whenever it was started.  So if a corner starts at 00:00:10 it needs to be played out.  If any of the top umpires in the world gave a PC with 10 secs left on the clock I can pretty much guarantee you that they would allow the clock to count down to 00:00:00 before the PC started to avoid having to blow a whistle - or have a hooter sound - in the middle of the PC.

To pick up on philthy's point, if your interpretation was correct there would be no need for a provision in the rules for "overtime" PCs as one would never arise.  How could you give a PC after the whistle had blown for the end of a half?

[glossevans]

Not wishing to re-ignite this debate any further, but wouldn't the PC be deemed as over once a defender had played the ball? In this case that was the orginal save from the shot that subsequently involved the ball being trapped?

From that point on, it was entirely possible to score a goal without the ball passing out of the circle. If the 'keeper is 'intentionally' fouling by (for example) covering the ball, that a PS is a justifyable decision in the right circimstances - if a little harsh. A more likely outcome would be another PC.

As for Controllers third point, you take it on the chin and move on. It ain't fair, but no-one ever said it was!!

[deegum]

For glossevans

13.4 The match is prolonged at half-time and full-time to allow completion of a penalty corner or any subsequent penalty corner or penalty stroke ; for this purpose, the penalty corner is completed when :

a a goal is scored
b an attacker commits an offence
c the ball travels more than 5 metres outside the circle
d the ball travels outside the circle for the second time
e the ball is played over the back-line and a penalty corner is not awarded
f a defender commits an offence which does not result in another penalty corner
g a penalty stroke is awarded.

The difference between completion of a PC in "overtime' and the completion in ordinary time is 13.4.d.

( and that's important let me tell you.  -Almost lost a tournament once because the umpire didn't know that difference )
The other conditions also end all PC specific rules in a normal time PC

[redumpire]

Not wishing to re-ignite this debate any further, but wouldn't the PC be deemed as over once a defender had played the ball?

Sorry gloss, but can you explain your thinking here, given the rule that deegum has quoted above?

[glossevans]

deegum, redumpire - just me not understanding the difference between a 'normal' PC taking place during a match and an 'overtime' PC. I thought that a 'normal' PC was deemed as over or complete once a defender had played the ball?

I have no problem in putting my hand up and saying that there is a possibility I might be wrong.

Just to clarify (for my understanding) an 'overtime' PC is not over when a defender plays the ball?

I think thats what I should be taking from what deegum posted.

If that's a correct understanding, in Controller's orginal post / question, there could have been no goal-scoring opportunity until the ball passed outside the circle (in this case for the first time)?

[philthy]

No PC is over just because a defender plays the ball - it's only over when one of the scenarios in deegum's post happens, with the exception of 13.d