deliberate foot

AndyGaut 7
ragyrascal 5
IRN BRU 5
Rutter 5
The.Rampage.Rado 5
JiMMM 5
Bulsara 4
juveniliahockey 4
shepdogg 4
foozbear 3

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[Jonesy]

incident occurred in our U18 game today

one of the players on my team passed the ball past a player, only for him to deliberately put his foot in the way and break down play

now IMO that is a straight yellow - no question

the umpire did award a short for it, but showed a green card instead

but then later he gave a yellow for some bad stick tackles, which is unfair IMO considering what had happened before

this also happened in a 2's league game, where thankfully a yellow was given, and that was at the half way line instead of in the opposition's 25

thoughts?

[ArchusXV]

stupid defender for getting caught doing it, at least look like your running

[aussieump]

incident occurred in our U18 game today

one of the players on my team passed the ball past a player, only for him to deliberately put his foot in the way and break down play

now IMO that is a straight yellow - no question

the umpire did award a short for it, but showed a green card instead

but then later he gave a yellow for some bad stick tackles, which is unfair IMO considering what had happened before

this also happened in a 2's league game, where thankfully a yellow was given, and that was at the half way line instead of in the opposition's 25

thoughts?

For the breakdown of play it should have been a YC, not sure from your original post why a PC was awarded, was the play inside the 23m area?

I take it the following happened, your player tried/attempted to play the ball past the defender who deliberately used his foot to stop the ball. If the play was inside the 23m area then a PC for sure, plus a personal penalty, YC, if outside the 23m area FHA and a personal penalty, YC,

As for the other instances you mention, a bad stick check may still have been a YC regardless of the earlier decision you mention, the 2's game you are happy at that decision.

AU

[foozbear]

should be...

but it is u/18 when you umpire anything with a U in front of it you become more of a coach than a hard and fast umpire.

the PC and a green card could have been enough for the player to understand his mistake.

I had a player last night in a mens game deliberately stick his foot 5 cm to the right to stop the ball in a tackle. the flow of the game and the general spirit in which it was played didnt neccesitate a YC...but I did call him over and said...."you and I both know that we shouldnt do what you did. we also know what card this could be?" he said yeah I know sorry....and he  didnt do anything stupid for the rest of the game.

you do not need to jump straight to a YC at every instance...sometimes a polite word and a warning is enough.

[aussieump]

Foozbear,

So it was bad enough for you to stop play and have a word with the player, so did you issue a GC or just stop play, because that is what the player was attempting to do illegally, stop play/breakdown play. Was your warning considered to be a Verbal GC then.

It is not my role as an umpire to coach the teams even in a U/xx game but it is possible for me to educate them to the rules.

[foozbear]

aussie ump I gave him a GC and a stern warning about that kind of behaviour on the field.

and Im not saying coaching the players in playing...but coaching as in rules.

u/12 hockey is all about letting them play it and not calling as much feet but definatly calling deliberate kicking..whacking with sticks....swinging wildly on sticks.

they know they arent meant to let the ball hit their foot but at that age....how skillful are they? in some countries the age level and skill changes...so applying the same rules governance on under 9 players to senior levels can be harsh.

and lets face it...how many teams have coaches that actually play hockey let alone know the rules.

[glossevans]

I'm not sure if this will open me up to a torrent of abuse, but in my view the answer to this question is dependant on the standard of the game.

In the orginal post, the scenario was descibed as an U18 game. If this was of a good standard that the umpiring should reflect the standard of the game and the ability of the players taking part - and by ability I mean, the players knowledge / understanding of the rules as well. As such, a yellow may have been in order.

If the game was of a lower standard than anything from a strong whistle to a green card and a stern word could be appropriate depending on quite how blatent the offence was.

For the rules to demand or dictate certain decisions or actions in certain circumstances is a dangerous route as it will remove the ability/option for an official to interpret a situation and react accordingly. You wouldn't want a junior game to be umpired to the same rigor as a national league for example.

[Trig]

I'm not sure if this will open me up to a torrent of abuse, but in my view the answer to this question is dependant on the standard of the game.

In the orginal post, the scenario was descibed as an U18 game. If this was of a good standard that the umpiring should reflect the standard of the game and the ability of the players taking part - and by ability I mean, the players knowledge / understanding of the rules as well. As such, a yellow may have been in order.

If the game was of a lower standard than anything from a strong whistle to a green card and a stern word could be appropriate depending on quite how blatent the offence was.

For the rules to demand or dictate certain decisions or actions in certain circumstances is a dangerous route as it will remove the ability/option for an official to interpret a situation and react accordingly. You wouldn't want a junior game to be umpired to the same rigor as a national league for example.

At some levels, yes you should consider how to umpire a game, BUT, when it is a deliberate offence it must be blown and yellow given regards the level of hockey, otherwise the players will never learn. Tha old old excuse that I didn't know the rules etc just is not good enough.

[Kilmory]

I'm not sure if this will open me up to a torrent of abuse, but in my view the answer to this question is dependant on the standard of the game.

First of all, lets hope nothing you ask ever leads to a torrent of abuse. 

Secondly I think you are correct to some extent. I think I borrowed a line from Deegum a couple of weeks ago when after committing some minor crime I stated 'I wish I was good enough to have done that deliberately'. Cue fits of laughter and a lesser penalty against me.

[keely]

BUT, when it is a deliberate offence it must be blown and yellow given regards the level of hockey, otherwise the players will never learn.

Really? In that case, why do the rules even contemplate a green card? I assume you'll be able to point us to the relevant rule or guidance that declares that every deliberate offence must be penalized with a yellow card, Trig.

What really bothers me about this whole "if someone uses a deliberate foot it must be a yellow nonsense" is that it's just as much a myth passed along from generation to generation as believing that the PC is over when a defender touches the ball. Just because a lot of people think it's true doesn't make it so.

Every intentional foul must be judged in the context of the game and the effect on that particular play. There is nothing more integrally heinous about a player sticking a foot out than a player chopping down an attacker, but few umpires would absolutely go straight to a yellow card every time or even a majority of the time, would they? Or is the problem that many or most umpires aren't skillful or confident enough to assess that intention, but they sure are confident about the use of the foot? In that case, it certainly isn't fair to penalize players more severely because of our lack of ability, is it?

[Trig]

So your saying that if a player deliberately moved their foot across to stop the ball and break down play doesn't warrant a yellow card?

[keely]

Is that what my post says? Was I unclear? 

[redumpire]

OK guys, let's chill out a little...

Trig, no umpire would want to be constrained by a directive that said "every time X happens, the only response is Y".  I can think of many occasions when a player might appear to deliberately kick the ball when a yellow card would not be appropriate.  As an extreme example, a thoroughly demoralised team is 12-0 down with 2 minutes left when one of their team deliberately kicks the ball somewhere near the half-way line.  Are you really going to insist that a yellow card is given in that situation?  I know I'd be very unlikely to even get a green card out.  I'd prefer a quiet word and a sympathetic shrug to the winning team's captain.  And you can't say "Ah yes, well... but...", because that goes completely against the notion that "a deliberate offence... must be blown and yellow given" which is what you said before.  Context is everything when it comes to player management.

Keely, did you have scorn flakes for breakfast today?!

[justin]

I'm not sure if this will open me up to a torrent of abuse, but in my view the answer to this question is dependant on the standard of the game.

First of all, lets hope nothing you ask ever leads to a torrent of abuse. 

Secondly I think you are correct to some extent. I think I borrowed a line from Deegum a couple of weeks ago when after committing some minor crime I stated 'I wish I was good enough to have done that deliberately'. Cue fits of laughter and a lesser penalty against me.

I don't know if deegum also wrote this, but I have certainly quoted its having been said to me....with much the same effect
In my case I gave a PC after judging that the keeper played it behind intentionally....he thanked me for my high opinion of his skill!

I could easily have been carded for a completely involuntary move of my back foot, on one of the rare occasions when I was playing 'wing-half'....the ball was pushed past my back foot, which moved to intercept it
Fortunately this was one occasion when it helped to have an umpire who knew me and accepted my grovelling apology and insistence that it was not done with intent.
(It would've spoiled my cardless career record, too )

[deegum]

I don't know if deegum also wrote this, 'I wish I was good enough to have done that deliberately

I'm quite positive I was the original user of this phrase in world hockey.

I am also the umpire who solved a problem by kicking the ball into the goal,

AND the first to rule on half a ball crossing the line.

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