Challenging outside the D

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[Grim_D]

Q: When would you make the decision to challenge outside the D and why?

This isn't something I'd normally do, but if confronted with a situation you can have little impact on (in terms of coming away with a save) on a broken play or breakaway opportunity, would you attempt to shut down the play in this method? I was wondering if it is plausible, having seen 'pro' keepers attempt it with little positive outcome.

In a National Premier league game this season between Reading and East Grinstead, Nick Brothers was left alone against a breakaway through the defence. With nobody back to help out, he decided to run out early, slide tackling outside the D to prevent a certain goal and one-on-one chance.

However, it failed, with the ball hitting Brother's body (being against the rules), having been unable to make a proper tackle with his stick. As a result, Brothers wasn yellow carded, 'sin binned' for the alloted ten minutes and an unfortunate player had to pad up, letting in a short corner in the dying minutes!!

This is the action photo courtesy of John O' Brien's First Focus Photo's:
http://www.firstfocusphoto.com/index.php?cat=events&page=photo&photoid=hz1fm6elhz&pg=5&


I also noticed a well attempted interception outside the D by Club an Der Alster's goalkeeper Tim Jessulat in the recent Hamburg knock out stages of the EHL tournament.

In their match against Egara, he was up against a 3 on 1, with little chance. On seeing what was going to happen as the Egara players ran on through upfield, unchallenged, he charged outside the D, diving head first for a stick tackle to block a pass from the ball carrier to the intended shooter. He made a successful (in the sense that no goal came out of it) interception, but it was ruled a foul because he got more of his body on it. Although he got a bit with the stick, most of the ball hit his arm/body. Again, he was carded and sent off (for the 10 minute penalty).


Unfortunately I can't embed the clip because it's not on YouTube!  The tackle itself is made at 13:57 or abouts playing time in the EHL extended highlights for the Club Egara vs Club An Der Alster [Hamburg Day 1]

This should link you to the video:
http://www.ehlhockey.tv/#/ehlgallery/MzM3MQ==


Is this good aggressive decision making on the goalkeeper's part knowing that the potential to make the successful interception over turns the certainty of a goal being scored?

Or is it a stupid idea and the goalkeeper should just stay back and try to make the save, even if there isn't much chance?

[CCG]

Funninly enough I saw something similar happen at my club this season.

The keeper (Rhino as he's known) went to top D to charge but inside initially. He ended up accidently sliding with the ball outside the D. This was deemed a foul and he was yellow carded. Is this fair? After all he took the ball in the D and when he realised he was touching the ball with his body (top leg I seem to remember) he immediately made and effort to get away from it. Mind you the umpire took a lot of stick afterwards from the supporters on the sideline, as most of us agreed it was unintentional and deserving of a green at worst.

[Jonty]

This is an interesting thread from the UC.

I did post in the thread; basically it can work but I would advise against it most of the time, and I have seen it utilised very well on occasion, but I feel it's a little harsh when a GK genuinely attempts to play the ball legally, fluffs it and is awarded a YC & PC  

[CCG]

This is an interesting thread from the UC.

I did post in the thread; basically it can work but I would advise against it most of the time, and I have seen it utilised very well on occasion, but I feel it's a little harsh when a GK genuinely attempts to play the ball legally, fluffs it and is awarded a YC & PC  

Thought it was a bit harsh, after all as soon as he realised he was touching the ball he made a VERY obvious attempt to get up and move away. It was a crap umpire iirc, he made some really bad calls that day, including some against the opposition, normally I would be for this ( ) but on this day there were some really awful calls.

[Grim_D]

This is an interesting thread from the UC.

Have had a look at the thread and is an interesting read, in terms of the penalty for making a bad tackle etc.

However, in terms of the tactical decision making from the goalkeeper, is it a good decision to try and eliminate a goal scoring opportunity at the cost of short corner?

Or just sit back and try to make the eventual save?

[Jonty]

Depends.......normally I'd say that if a long through-ball is played and your defence is nowhere to be seen with a forward chasing the ball and you can meet the ball outside the D unchallenged (but it wouldn't run into the D without the forward having picked up and under control by then) then it's usually worth attempting 

Saying that, it's not something that you tend to train; if you're more confident then you'd likely try it more often.

[Grim_D]

Depends.......normally I'd say that if a long through-ball is played and your defence is nowhere to be seen with a forward chasing the ball and you can meet the ball outside the D unchallenged (but it wouldn't run into the D without the forward having picked up and under control by then) then it's usually worth attempting

This was the case in both examples. Brothers was trying to close down the long ball and prevent the player getting on the end of the pass before he had the chance to break into the D. Effectively eliminating a scoring chance from happening...

For me that would be the situation I'd consider coming out to tackle; encouraging aggressiveness on the play.

Saying that, it's not something that you tend to train; if you're more confident then you'd likely try it more often.

Practise would help - as you say, confidence works wonders, and if you know what you're doing, you should be alright to challenge within the rules.

I think doing a sort of a European one knee slide, bringing the leg pads out of the play and the body back, to limit the chance of contact on the play would work. Then concentrating on the stick - getting strong to the clean for a strong tackle to sweep through on a block (as demonstrated on one of the Polish instruction videos Andy found).

[Mr Pink]

interesting thread after my game on the weekend...
on two occasions i left the D when a long ball was struck through to a forward to run onto it.  in both cases it had deflected off one of my team mates (so it wasn't a clean ball through to the striker), and the striker was trying to chase it down. Where i went to intercept it was out near the sideline at about 16yards from the baseline, and a few yards wide of the D(once on the left, and once on the right)a. The one time i let it run over the baseline as it was safer, and the forward couldn't quite reach it, and i couldn't have achieved a much better(and still safe) outcome then a long corner(which is what it was anyway) and it was on my back stick.
The other time was on the right, and i swept it clear over about the 25 yard line, as the striker would have stopped it going out.  basically it just slowed down the play, allowing the defense to get back.

So there are certainly times IMO where coming out of the D to play with your stick is important, and you need to be confident playing the ball with your stick(you can't afford to stuff these plays up!).
However, i couldn't really justify trying to stick tackle a forward outside the D.  There's still a very high chance they'll get past you and score, and if they don't(or do) there's a good chance you'll end up off the field, and they'll score ANYWAY...

[Folmer]

As said before, there are occasions when coming out of the D is a good option. However, you must be VERY sure about the action otherwise you will end up with a PC and a YC. I have done it on a couple of occasions, all with great success buying time for the defence to come back and reposition.
You must NEVER make slide tackle or anything like that outside the D as the risk of the ball not hitting your stick is too great. Always make head first and deflect the ball over the sideline, this can be done on both sides of the D. If possible, remain standing and hit the ball towards a teammate. (if that is possible then there is something very strange happening tho)
When in doubt, stay inside the D and challenge the attacker on the edge forcing him towards the side of the pitch and hope your defence will back you up in time.

When there is only limited time to run out towards the attacker, stay halfway up the D, this has been done to great effect by Pirmin Blaak (HC Rotterdam goalie) in the quarter final of the EHL against Amsterdam. It shortens the distance you must travel (as most outfielders have better stamina and speed) and puts pressure on the attacker as they must make a choice and in doing so can only fail.

[gnarlygk]

Well the only piece of kit keepers can use outside the circle is our stick so I guess it makes sense the only suitable situation to make a play outside the circle is where we can use our stick. So yup I agree with the scenarios already mentioned that you can effectively kill a play where a forward is charging down a through ball / deflection moving at speed and you are going to be stranded with no defence and facing a fwd about to take possession of the ball unchalleneged outside the circle.

As mentioned already you can avert disaster if you take the ball outside the circle with your stick and deflect it wide or out of the current angle of attack that the fwd is running the ball down. The difficult bit in this is making the correct snap decision for the given scenario and then actualy execution where you have to anticipate and time your run, slide, deflection before the fwd gets to it. All have to be combined and completed with precision so in this i guess you have to be absolutely committed to the discion to make this play and run out as powerfully as possible oh yeah and actually make the deflection and not miss the ball. Anything less and you're going to look like a real turkey even worse if you misjudge your stick deflection and miss the ball altogether. Still i rekon its better than being a sitting duck with a fwd taking a pot shot at the goals. For whatever reason I seem to have had fairly good success at this and generally do it a couple of times a season, the last time being the weekend just past where I JUST got the bottom edge of my stick on the ball fortunately redirecting it slightly to my right in a different trajectory away from the attackers running angle - not the best of saves but hey being an ex field player just quitely I actually really really enjoy it when I pull it off however ugly it is.

[floz]

I do this a fair bit, certainly won't try to take on an attacker who had the ball under control outside the circle.... no reason to give away the advantage of being able to use your whole body... But certainly better to run out and clear a loose ball that could get chased down or might not make it to the D to kick.... (I'd usually only do it in fairly central position, if its heading for the corners probably better to stay put)?

I personally don't go in head first though, I tend to try to take the ball to my right with a slide, as I can get a better contact/power when I get low and also keep your body well away from any cock ups.... If you have to clear to your left though.... head first certainly best, otherwsie, if you mess it up its going to roll into your body.

Cautionary tale though... I did get yellow carded for this this two seasons ago. I miscued the ball directly to thier C.F who popped it round me and my initial moronic reaction was to stick a pad out.... didn't have to wait for umpires decision there. suffice to say: if you try it you've got to execute 100% or your stuffed which would be the weakness....

[number9]

When I played, I probably went outside the D more than most but that still wasn't very much at all. As a coach, I only recommend it in extreme situations.

Let's say you have an opposition attacker breakaway at the half-way line, and for whatever reason there are no defenders in the area. So, when the attacker approaches the D, it is a 1-vs-0. As a coach, I recommend to my GKs that they time their charge so that they meet the attacker at the top of the D (as he enters the circle) and tackle them inside the circle. In a circumstance where the GK makes the save/tackle but the attacker gets the "rebound" and thus ends up with the ball, things can get difficult. The last time I played -- which was the first time I played in about 9 years -- I had this exact scenario happen to me; the attacker got the ball back after I tackled him and I pursued him out of the circle.

I ended up making somewhat of a diving tackle, but in the end I made contact with his stick and thus a stickcheck was called. A PS was initially called but that was changed to a PC when my captain suggested to the umpire that he thought you can't award a PS for something that happens outside of the circle (don't ask me if this is true, I'm not an umpire!).

The reason that I made this decision is the rationale I try and instill when I coach. Attackers are, of course, much faster and more agile than almost all GKs. In a scenario when an attacker has, compared to the GK, all the time in the world to setup their play/shot, I expect the attackers to be successful most of the time. So, to me at least, the GK's strategy must -- in cases of 1-vs-0s and other situations where the odds are overwhelmingly stacked against the GK -- try and minimize the player's chances to setup their shot. And, to me, that means meeting them at the top of the circle as they enter. Similarly, if the ball happens to pop out of the circle while they're engaged in the play, I think sitting back and "waiting" for the attacker to re-enter the circle is suicide; in my mind the GK should pursue them.

Of course, this is much easier said than done, and fraught with difficulties -- corners, strokes and yellow cards! Again, this is just my $0.02.

[silky]

1. You can do it, so if it's going to work why not!

2. I would use it to cut out a pass or take a gamble if it's going to develop in a 3-1 with me...

I wouldn't take the chance if it was just 1 on 1 and I thought he had a 30% chance of winning the ball, easier to take on the attacker as he enters the D. Just give yourself time to react, gives you a better chance than rushing out.

[gratcliffe_96]

why in a one v one situation would you leave the D and lose nearly all of your advantage over an attacker??
if a long speculative ball is played and you can get there before the attacker and play the ball away with your stick then it is a different story entirely.

[The Camel]

With the new auto-play rule, is there much point to leaving the circle anymore? Best case scenario sees the ball over the sideline, the attacker is now in a position to play on leaving the goalkeeper in no-mans-land...