slidingdive tackles and chirping

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[brad o]

hi im new to this forum. am from south africa and umpire in the local club league were i live.

Firstly:
would like to know opinions regrading sliding/diving to make a tackle. personally i havent noticed any rules which forbide a player to dive and make a tackle. I was blowing a game on sunday and the other umpire kept telling the one team to stay on their feet as quite a few were diving to make tackles. They were however not putting the attacker in danger at all ie-not knocking into them or knocking them off their feet etc... i had no problems with the dive tackles as long as they were clean, but some of the attacking players moaned about it. i simply told them that there was nothing wrong with the tackles. as far as i know i did the right thing but would appreciate some feedback.

secondly:
this is my first year back in umpiring for a while and ive noticed the chirping of umpires is still a big part of the game at times. i have however grown tired of it and players who chirp my decisions now receive a green card. it usually shuts them up so seems to be working. I am approachable if a player has a query but they must do so in a polite manner. is my apporach correct regarding the green card?

thirdly:
are you allowed to play the ball once you are on the ground? seem to remember that being a rule in the past, but havent seen it in the 2009 rules.....

[Goalie64]

Welcome.

1) As I play and umpire on sand pitches only I don't see a lot of diving tackles.
Nothing in the rules to stop you making such a tackle - and if done well it's a great skill.
If you do, just make sure it isn't dangerous to you as well as the attacker.

2) Chirping - for me I'm happy for players to talk to me (nicely), but not make comments AT me. I'll cover this in pre match chat with the other umpire and mention it to the captains at the toss. I probably wouldn't go to a card straight away (obviously depending on what was said), but start with a warning, perhaps reverse a call, and then a card. I have in the past yellowed players for "chat"

3) Yes you can play the ball on the ground - subject to it not being dangerous.

[Hacker]

The other issue to watch out for on sliding tackles is whether or not they create an obstruction. The tackle might miss, be clean (i.e. no contact) but could leave the defender blocking a legitimate path.

[kaiwawao]

brad o

On the sliding, yes it's legit but I would suggest you consider the manner they are doing it as well as the tackle itself. If it's done such that the defender knows if they miss the tackle they'll still stop the player (either through blocking the ball with their body or taking out the player) you should probably be going straight to a card, perhaps a green where the skill level is lacking (where the warning could put off other players attempting it) and the lack of skill is more the reason for the bad tackle. If you think there is intent to stop at all costs (e.g. diving where the body will block the attacker's progression) and/or dangerous tackles, should be a yellow.

[mosley59]

Welcome!
1. With dives, I look at both where the player dived from, and how they dived, especially in the circle. If the player dives stickfirst, from a position that doesn't endanger the person he is diving at, and gets it with his stick cleanly, fine. If he dives stickfirst, misses and plays it with his body, FH (or PC if in the circle). If he slides at the other player, causing the opponent to be endangered ( like here, or slides leading with the body (especially in the circle) and misses it with his stick I will likely be harsher on him. In the first instance because he's caused danger to another player, but in the second instance because he has chosen to slide in an uncontrolled fashion and deliberately risk playing the ball with his body should he miss - in other words, deliberately trying to stop it no matter how. If it happened in the circle, he will quite possibly give up a PS, IMHO, or at the least a PC and likely card (depending on grade, I may be harsher or more lenient in my response). The other thing to watch for here is a player who slides in to try and intercept a ball just as it's hit, and who gets it full in the body, or who obstructs an attacker by lying on the ground. IMHO, that's their fault for having put themselves in that position, so FHA, PC or PS (depending on how they slid and where), not FHD for danger.

2. Each umpire has their own level of talk they will permit. I will allow a little bit of grumbling (let's face it, a player is never going to be 100% happy with a call you make against him), but as soon as it becomes offensive (swearing or loud comments about myself or the other umpire) or picks up in the amount of chirping, then I will either give the player a verbal warning, reverse or march a FH, talk to captains, or GC or YC, depending on how much it's been happening or how offensive I've found it. Find what you are happy with, and then use your control ladder from that point on. I find personally the best way to let players you know you've had enough is to find the person who's been doing the most talking, and the next time he chirps, *peep peep* "you *point*, shush". Seems to work for me.

3. As goalie says, unless dangerous or illegal (back of the stick, with some part of your body, or over the backline) you can play it on the ground.

[dodgeyumpires]

I gotta say most of that is pretty much right. In my most humble of opinions of course

2. Is definitely up to how much you will/wont take. Being SA I assume that it is a lot less than us  kiwis. I know 2 SA umpires, both of them definitely tolerate a lot less backchat and dissent. One in particular (god bless his cotten sox) is much more the policeman style... to both his detriment and benefit. (loui... hahaha)  Also speaking to players who have played in SA, they say the hockey is much more physical and in general, can be quite 'brutal'.... perhaps that is why they umpire the way they do. Something to keep in mind though, is you will gain a reputation, as an umpire who wont take any swearing or commenting.  Could be again, beneficial, or not. Something you may want to think about.

3. Pretty much the same as 1, if you do play the ball on the ground, the golden rule applies... safety. Theres no point letting someone play the ball while they are on the ground if its right in front of their face and an opponent is half way through a wind up... but open play, as long as it isnt dangerous to anyone, go for it.

1. As for one, three rules could apply, but your right, nothing in black and white to say no slide tackling -
A) Players must not tackle unless in a position to play the ball without body contact
B) Players must not play the ball dangerously or in a way which leads to dangerous play
C) Players must not intimidate or impede another player

So if someone makes a slide tackle, providing that they dont make body contact with their opponent, they dont end up impeding the ball carrier (obstruction) and its not dangerous, then play on
But! Should one of these occur, you might want to start thinking about fetching your cards. It is a high risk-high penalty action!

Hope that helps In my humble opinion of course
Oh yeah, and welcome

Welcome!
1. With dives, I look at both where the player dived from, and how they dived, especially in the circle. If the player dives stickfirst, from a position that doesn't endanger the person he is diving at, and gets it with his stick cleanly, fine. If he dives stickfirst, misses and plays it with his body, FH (or PC if in the circle). If he slides at the other player, causing the opponent to be endangered ( like here, or slides leading with the body (especially in the circle) and misses it with his stick I will likely be harsher on him.

Ahh I love that clip!!! Just a few things mos...whether its the phrasing you used, 'the person he is diving at'   Remember its the whole of the tackle, not just the clearing of the ball that the tackler is responsible for... In the video clip the red guy actually clears the ball with his stick before cleaning him up. The tackler must be responsible for the whole tackle, lead up, the actual tackle, and where his body ends up as well. (Thanks Tim)
Another one, just a thought... in the second part you wrote "if he dives stick first, misses it and plays with his body, FH (or PC in circle)."
To throw a spanner in the works here and hijack brad o's thread, what do people think of this one? I think id award PS, (remember some discussion about keepers diving outside circle and playing ball with pads, high risk high penalty action... wondering what people think about this... if we can keep it civil )

[mosley59]

Agreed, dodgy, that's why I put in "from a position that doesn't endanger an opponent" - by which I meant that his slide, the tackle AND the followthrough aren't dangerous.

Regarding your other point, I think if his intent was to reach a ball that was otherwise too far away to reach, and over-reaches it, playing it with his arm, not an intentional foul. That said, if he dives, stick first, at the ball and stops it with his body, I think you have to look at the intent of the slide. Was his intent to play it legally and cleanly, or to stop it no matter the cost? If the former, I'd go FH (or PC, possibly even PC outside circle depending on level, how bad it was and how much of an advantage was gained), and maybe a GC (again, depending on level). If the latter, he'll be getting a short break from the game and a harsh penalty. As I currently umpire at a pretty low level at club competition (oh joy of joys), I'm more lenient. In the occasional higher-level game I get, I expect the players to have the skills to pull off these high-risk actions better, with the result that if they muff it, the penalty is harsher. For example, in the 2nd or 3rd division of the boy's secondary school competition here, if a player was to dive at the ball (because that's what he's seen the big kids do and wants to try it) and lands squarely on the ball just inside the 23, preventing the pass from making it to an unmarked attacker on the baseline, he'll give up a free hit. If the same thing happened at Rankin Cup, I'd blow PC, and at least a GC - I expect the players to know better the consequences of these actions at the higher level, and thus to have the higher skill levels necessary to attempt them correctly. [/end ramble]

[dodgeyumpires]

Fair enough

[foozbear]

Well I guess this would be the place I want to ask a specialised question about the sliding tackles.

In quite a few games recently I have noticed more of the diving/sliding tackles.

Now most of them go ok and no-one is fouled but on occassion I have had to blow an obstruction due to the player following through and knocking over the opposing player after they got the ball.

What intrigues me is that the moment I call....their response is.."BUT I got the ball first"  my response is always..."yes that you did...but what did you do after you got the ball?"

my question would be HAS it ever been ok to get the ball and "follow through" on the tackle?

My curiosity is that players think its ok to get the ball first and afterwards mean nothing.

I had to award a PC due to the goalie taking out the player when they could have gained possesion again before the ball left the backline. It was a National team training session and I thought a PS might have been in order but the attacker wasnt in the best of positions to make a good shot on goal at a few inches off the backline if he got it.  besides national teams need more corner practice.

Is anyone else getting this same phenomina?..players hurling the old...BUT I got the ball cleanly/first?

[keely]

No, it's never been ok. I think it's a myth borrowed from soccer/football.

[dodgeyumpires]

All the time!  But I got the ball, or Look where the ball went!

I had one where a defender was marking an attacker just outside the circle line, the attacker received the ball from the 23,and magically falls over... face first, towards the 23. I big PC, (game was getting a bit ridiculously out of control) and cop flak.... but I got the ball. I replied, and the player, he said yeah, but I got the ball.

Good one!!!

[mosley59]

I hear it a lot too - "I got the ball first!", having come over the top, taken the ball, and then hooked the player's stick so they can't regather the ball. Or those lovely shave tackles, where the player knocks the ball out, and sweeps away the stick with the followthrough, preventing the retrieval of the ball. I had one of those at India Shield last year, with an attacker breaking into the empty (apart from GK) circle. A defender was running up behind him, and swept the ball away cleanly with a shave tackle, but his followthrough smacked the player's stick away. PC outside the circle, as had he not taken the stick out the player could very well have regathered the ball, got into the circle, and had a good shot. He didn't like the call, but when I explained it after the game he saw my point and was happy with it.

How does that (getting the ball first) work with a goalie though? I've always allowed goalies to slide inside the circle, even if their slide takes out the player first, as long as they play the ball first and their intent is to play the ball, not take out the player, and I've seen most of the umpires where I am allow the same. Is that the correct way to umpire this, or am I wrong here? Haven't really seen it happen at international level, but would appreciate an international perspective on it.

[keely]

We've had lots of lengthy discussions on this issue in the forum. I'm just going to quote myself from a previous thread, but that's a good one to start some light reading on:

...One fundamental distinction between an outfield defender's diving tackle and a goalkeeper's slide tackle is that there is a reasonable expectation the GK is going to do that maneuver because they are permitted to use any part of their body to stop the attacking threat inside their circle. What is more difficult to understand, by players and umpires alike, is that the special privileges of a GK make them a larger 'target' to get around in the circle, but also more dangerous to field players all at once.

Both the GK and attacker are responsible for controlling their body. I've seen many attackers fly at the GK, put the ball straight at the GK when she's supine and then make no effort whatsoever to stop their momentum and basically flip themselves right over the GK in expectations of "earning" a PS and a yellow card for the GK... there is no difference between that and the situation where a field defender makes a perfectly legal tackle and the dispossessed attacker runs straight ahead and tries to bowl over or tumbles over the defender.

At the same time, the GK is not permitted to slide in an uncontrolled manner and take out an attacker who cannot protect themselves. There is no difference between that and a defender who runs madly at a player in possession of the ball, makes a legal tackle but does nothing to stop their momentum from barging into the attacker.

Physical, dangerous play is well covered in the rule book - just look (again) at the preamble to s. 9, 9.4 and particularly 9.13.

This whole notion of "getting the ball first" is simply a player's myth, a "key phrase" that they've heard bandied about and then acquires this whole new interpretation because it's basically taken completely out of context. It's not in the rule book and in my time never been part of a rules guidance or briefing.

So, speaker2, this is not a case where "GKs are immune to this rule" such that it needs to be reworded. It's another difficult area of umpiring that requires improvement.

Try Goalkeeper's slide tackle - legal?, Block slide, Sliding GK, Goalkeeper Slide Tackle... all in the PS and Goalkeeping sub-board (part of the Archives that no one is looking at any more).

[foozbear]

thanks for that keely,

I had seen something like that...and it may have been that...

Its been the way I approach the situation...

after I explained to the keeper on what she had done...she seemed satisfied...

[Bertybob]

I would echo everything above.

I will allow a slide tackle, but the player doing it must "tackle like a god" - clean, controlled, well timed.

In my experience about 7 times out of 10, they get blown up for it as it is mistimed, clumsy and dangerous to either the attacker or defender.

If it makes me wince they get to have a sit down for a few minutes.

Chirping - A personal threshold, but I try not to be too quick to card - a chat first, then a green, then a word with captain, maybe one more green and the I am afraid it becomes Yellows all the way after that. A direct challenge involving swearing gets a yellow straight away from me.

Playing on the floor - Yes, subject to no danger to either player.