Diving feet first

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[gratcliffe_96]

It's. Wrong.
You risk giving away PCs or PSs, being given yellows or reds, and injuring your opponent or yourself.

i had junir performance stuff yesterday. we were doing one on ones, i smothered (single stacked) just prior to making contact with the ball, and accelerated through the ball, got the ball and cleared it. the player was right behind the ball, so he went flying over me. nobody had an issue with it.

i have been taught by one coach who is a CCC gk coach, and another who now is. that you accelerate through the ball, if ther player is there then that is that concern.

however i would ALWAYS help them up etc, NEVER go out of my way to hurt an opponenent, and you should always make it as safe as you can for them. just don't sacrifice you technique for it!

[mosley59]

Sorry gratcliffe, but it's still against the rules. Coaches don't tend to worry about the niceties of some of the less encountered rules, but if you get a decent umpire one game and do that, you'll be in the poo for sure, since accelerating through it is going to make it look more deliberate to them, and thus increase the penalty against you (longer YC time on the sideline).

[Goalie64]

Gratcliffe - your coaches are wrong.

If you have contact details for them I'd be keen for you to invite them onto the forum to debate their interpretation of the rule.
I would like to think we could keep it civilized and stay out of the sin bin.


Ninja - the "big presence" mentioned may well be you - but you could easily find yourself being the "big presence" in the dug out.

[gratcliffe_96]

so do you all think that i should slow down, and give forwards a better chance of beating me? sorry i just don;t follow this at all!

[philthy]

You just need to change your attitude!

If you wipe an opponent out it IS your problem and you could well be facing a PC or worse as many people have pointed out.

If they deliberatley run into you, obviously it's a FHD but if your go whizzing in and they have no hope of getting out the way, you can't really complain if the umpire takes a dim view of it!

[garli]

There's a large part of many keeping skills that are helped by being quick AND in control of your body.

[Ninja GK]

That's right - always in control.
I think some are missing the point - get the ball, but I'm not going to try to stay out of the attacker's way doing it. I want the attacker to stay out of my way. It's like sliding into second base in baseball to break up a double play. You can go into the base and get in the way to try to break up the throw but your main purpose for the slide cannot be to take out he fielder. But I want the fielder to be thinking about me too, not just his throw. Same thing here - I don't want the attacker just to be thinking about what skill she is going to throw at me, I want her to be distracted thinking about what skill I may throw at her. If I slide tackle, my focus is on getting the ball out of the D. As long as I play it that way, I would expect no penalty.

[mosley59]

I think the key to this skill is to develop enough control and a wide range of skills (stick, diving glove, sliding foot etc) so as to be able to get the ball cleanly if the player has it near them (e.g dribbling) without endangering them or taking them out; or to take it with enough room between you and them that they can safely avoid you (e.g a pass into the circle they're chasing down). The last situation is one where I'd agree you can develop a good presence - as an ex-attacker, I can safely say that if I was running onto a pass and saw a goalie charging out to get the ball I'd probably s*** myself and back off to try and get the rebound.

I think that the whole "he got the ball so it was ok" idea of taking out a player may have arisen when lower grade goalies have seen a good keeper slide, get the ball, then seen the attacker run into him and fall over (without anyone getting penalised).

[gratcliffe_96]

sorry guys, i may have come accross in the wrong way. i do not slide simply to take an attacker out, i accelerate through the ball to give myself the best chance of getting my front pad on that ball, clearing it out of the D! NOT to deliberately to hurt someone, not my idea of sport. if the attacker is behind that ball, then sorry but tough S***! his problem, not mine.

[philthy]

if the attacker is behind that ball, then sorry but tough S***! his problem, not mine.

and that's the attitude that stinks mate!

Of course it's your problem - he's in control of the ball and you flatten him in the process of taking that ball. That's your problem and your fault. You need to take that ball without flattening him - just as any other player on the pitch would have to do in making a tackke. And "accelerating through the ball" is surely going to make it look reckless and dangerous and you were out to get that ball and stuff what happens to the other guy.

Pegging it out and sliding through to swipe away a loose ball that's being chased down is one thing and a good skill. But if someone's got it on the end of their stick then you've got to try something far more controlled you CAN'T just slide through and take their legs and surely if you're accelerating through the slide that's exactly what's going to happen?
Take the ball with glove and stick
Take the ball with the end of a toe
Take the ball using a slide by all means - but you've got to get your angle and speed right so that you come away cleanly with the ball and without taking the player out - that's the real skill. Not charging on through like some idiot bull high on testosterone thinking that it's good and skillful to flatten someone.

As a keeper the only special privileges you have is the right to play the ball with your body and the right to wear the pads. Nothing else. In every other way you're bound by the same rules as everyone else. If a field player flattened an opponent in the process of taking the ball off them, that's a foul. So what's so special about you that makes it not a foul?

[gratcliffe_96]

firstly can i just say this is just a discussion, so i do not wish for this discussion to be become heated or personal. so (myself included) we should all just chill and remember this is a friendly and family forum.

G what did your international coaches say(presuming the junior performance stuff wasn't international )?

no we didnt cover smothering with wales this year. this was with one of england junior GK coaches doing smothering at JRPC trials.

Of course it's your problem - he's in control of the ball and you flatten him in the process of taking that ball. That's your problem and your fault. You need to take that ball without flattening him - just as any other player on the pitch would have to do in making a tackke. And "accelerating through the ball" is surely going to make it look reckless and dangerous and you were out to get that ball and stuff what happens to the other guy.

Pegging it out and sliding through to swipe away a loose ball that's being chased down is one thing and a good skill. But if someone's got it on the end of their stick then you've got to try something far more controlled you CAN'T just slide through and take their legs and surely if you're accelerating through the slide that's exactly what's going to happen?
Take the ball with glove and stick
Take the ball with the end of a toe
Take the ball using a slide by all means - but you've got to get your angle and speed right so that you come away cleanly with the ball and without taking the player out - that's the real skill. Not charging on through like some idiot bull high on testosterone thinking that it's good and skillful to flatten someone.

i don't think i have ever once said (please correct me if i am wrong) that i think it is skillful to take someone out.
i do not charge at peoiple like a bull, and when i smother i am very low to the ground and any player would have plenty of oppurtunity to get out of the way, by jumping over or moving!

 If a field player flattened an opponent in the process of taking the ball off them, that's a foul. So what's so special about you that makes it not a foul?

i am not sure on the official ruling, but in test match hockey i have seen on numerous occasions a player plant in a bridge/block tackle, take the ball and the oppo player ends up going over the tackler and landing on the floor. not blown, no one even batted an eyelid. i don't think this is dangerous, nor a CONTROLLED smother, like i am talking about.

[Snoody]

The difference between a defender planted in a bridge/block tackle and a GK sliding out is that the defender is static, holding his/her ground, and the foul is likely to be called against the ball carrier if there is body contact. (Almost the equivalent of a 'charging' foul in basketball.)

A sliding GK, by definition, is not static or holding his/her ground, and therefore is likely to have the call against them.
Even a controlled smother is likely to be called against the GK, if in the umpire's opinion the GK caused a collision.

If the ball's loose, and it's 50/50... you have the right to contest possession fairly. I've seen these collisions get called either way, have called them both ways myself when umpiring, and have had them go both for and against me when keeping. So I guess it's a "you had to be there" judgement call by the ump.

[mosley59]

Gratcliffe - philthy took umbrage (as do I) at your statement that "if the attacker is behind that ball, then sorry but tough S***! his problem, not mine.". It IS your problem. Rule 10.3a is very clear on that part. The issue I take with this statement is that it insinuates (to me) that you feel that you have that right to take out a player while going for the ball (you don't), that you're not able to be held accountable for threats to another player's safety arising from your actions like sliding for the ball willy-nilly (you are), and that you have some sort of right to the ball over an attacker (you don't). Please don't view this as a personal attack, as it's not. I'm just concerned over the attitudes implied by this statement (as an umpire, where we are responsible for players' safety).

The difference between the example you offer of a player planting in a tackle and the attacker going over them, is that that player is planted, and so all the momentum in the attacker's fall comes from them running into a legally positioned defender. This example is completely different than what we're discussing here. Contrast that event with a field player who slides at an attacker, takes the ball, then slides on into the attacker's legs, toppling them. That's the exact same motion as we're discussing for a GK, only in the field. The field player is going to give up a foul, and quite likely a card for doing something like that, so why is a GK exempt? Answer: they're not. If you slide at a player and they're forced to jump to avoid you, you're still guilty of dangerous play, and can have the exact same penalties applied to you as if you'd taken the player out (i.e PS and YC, depending on level). That attacker has as much right to the ball as you, and so you cannot perform a dangerous manouevre (like sliding at them), forcing them to dodge you and essentially relinquish the ball to you, as if they try to keep the ball (as they're entitled to), they'll be taken out, illegally.

The rule guidance I quoted in an earlier post is the proof the the FIH don't like players being taken out by goalies, and supports my opinion (as an ex-attacker and current umpire) and philthy's (as a GK and possible umpire - sorry philthy, don't know you personally so not sure about your exact role). As I said before, I feel it's better for you to develop your skillset so you can work out the best way to get that ball cleanly, and above all, SAFELY without endangering an attacker or taking someone out (developing your ability to slide and take it with your stick, for example). Sliding feet-first is undoubtedly a useful skill, but you have to learn when it is the appropriate skill to use, or whether another one would work better. Developing these skills thusly will not only improve your own playing, but also reduce the risk of your team being punished for you taking out a player by sliding feet-first.

(darn, Snoody beat me to some of those points, but I can't be bothered editing this)

[philthy]

Thanks mosley - that is indeed what I took umbrage (good word!) with!

gratcliffe - no one's saying you should just let the forward run in and shoot without challenging them. But you HAVE to challenge safely and legally. And you MUST get out of the mindset that you can take out a forward whose carrying the ball, purely because you're a goalie and he's not.

As I said earlier, being a goalie doesn't exempt you from any rules.

It's your attitude I have a problem with. Too many keepers are just reckless when it comes to this particular scenario because they think they have some divine right to the ball. You have no more right to it than any other player.

[F1-mania]

My perception was always that if I don't go in to intentionally take the player, and take the ball then its fair. I can take him down provided I'm not charging through him. If I kick the ball, and he goes sprawling when running into me then its a fair challenge. Is that right, or am I wrong in my preception here?