GKs being dangerous and protective equipment

 The Field Hockey Forum is the resource for players, coaches and umpires of Field Hockey. Join FHF now to have full access to all that we have to offer! Don't be satisfied with lurking when you can interact with thousands of other FHF’rs, take part in Competitions, win Prizes, download Coaching Papers, discover our vast Photo library and get rid of this message - Register Now!

[Spunko]

"10.3 a

Goalkeepers are not permitted to conduct
themselves in a manner which is dangerous to
other players by taking advantage of the protective
equipment they wear."

Haha, pretty sure most of the GKs I know don't care too much about that! *joking*

Serious question though, when strikers find themselves in a one-on-one situation with the 'keeper and the GK takes the ball, man, stick and all optional extras, is this not considered in breach of this rule?

I know strikers won't get much sympathy on here (certainly from me as a defender  ) but if the 'keeper effectively "takes them out" is this not conducting themselves in a manner which is dangerous to other players by taking advantage of the protective equipment they wear?

Just a question, and I was interested in the views of outfield players and goalkeepers alike.

[mani]

Not if theyve taken the ball cleanly.

[Spunko]

Not if theyve taken the ball cleanly.

Cleanly implies no contact with the player...I'm talking about when the ball, player and everything else is wiped out.

[mani]

Well a goalkeeper has every right to play the ball, if the action chosen isnt constituted as 'dangerous', and in the process of winning the ball someone is taken out - thats not a foul.

[philthy]

yes, i'd had that highlighted to me too

My reading of it is "well we couldn't do that anyway"

I'm not quite sure what it means to be honest. I guess it means no more pushing the top of your pads into the backs of peoples knees... but again, you couldn't do that anyway!

And when the ball, player and everything is wiped out I can't see how the umpire is going to call that any differently under this rule than the existing ones? They still have to make a judgement call as to whether the goalie took the ball cleanly and everything else was unintentional collateral or they slid into the player thinking "well i'm not going to get hurt". But - they had to make that call anyway!

[controller]

 

Common sense and reading of the situation would come in to effect.

99% of umpires can read the game in a way that allows them to know if the Goalkeeper has come out in a way and played for the player.

[Rutter]

This became a big debate many years ago when the long barrier technique became popular. The argument went that GK's would never lie in front of a shot if they didn't have the gear on and QED they were creating a foul by doing so. The same logic aplied to heading the ball with a helmet on.

Suffice to say, it never got much credence as most county level umpires seem to be ex-keepers

[Spunko]

For what it's worth I think as long as the 'keeper takes the ball first, the player is fair game! 

[philthy]

This became a big debate many years ago when the long barrier technique became popular. The argument went that GK's would never lie in front of a shot if they didn't have the gear on and QED they were creating a foul by doing so. The same logic aplied to heading the ball with a helmet on.

Suffice to say, it never got much credence as most county level umpires seem to be ex-keepers

Wouldn't stand there fullstop if I didn't have the gear on!

[Diligent]

Spunko and Mani's GKs are taking a big risk - taking on the umpire as well as the attacker: most would reckon the tackle that follows through isn't clean, it's dirty.

The note doesn't change the interpretation. It adds written support for the PS & GK's yellow card.

[Folmer]

For what it's worth I think as long as the 'keeper takes the ball first, the player is fair game!

Would love it to be so, but unfortunately it's not football.

From the 2009 rule book:
9.13 Players must not tackle unless in a position to play the ball without body contact.

I know it's from the players section, but you can appy this rule to GK's as well. And furthermore, all GK's know what they are doing when slide-tackling into an attacker and can be held fully accountable when they knock him face down.
A clean tackle, like said before, is without bodily contact. If the GK does slide he must take into account the speed of the attacker and the properties of the turf before initiating the tackle.
Basically every tackle where an opponent is hit is a foul. Exept when the opponent has enough time to go around the GK but deliberatly walks into the GK or when the attacker is obstructing the ball, then FHD.

In short, with the exeptions mentioned above in mind:
- Just ball -> No foul, play on.
- First ball, then player -> Depends on situation and severity of contact. Often PC, also possible to play on.
- First Player, then ball -> (Almost) always PS.

[Spunko]

Would love it to be so, but unfortunately it's not football.

From the 2009 rule book:
9.13 Players must not tackle unless in a position to play the ball without body contact.

I suppose the issue here becomes did the gk travel into the attacker, did the attacker's momentum take him into the GK...or was it 50/50?!

I'm glad I'm not an umpire sometimes! 

[ivyleague]

if any player (including a GK) "takes a player out" before, during or after playing the ball it is a foul against them. it's very different from football where it's ok to go to up end a player if you get the ball first. in hockey the whole action is considered, if a player is "taken out" i'd consider that dangerous regardless of whether they get the ball first or not.

the 50/50's are more difficult - where momentum of both parties need to be considered, these situations in my opinion need to be seen and judged on their own merit.

[keely]

Anybody else getting deja vu?

We've had lots of lengthy discussions on this issue in the forum. I'm just going to quote myself from a previous thread, but that's a good one to start some light reading on:

...

One fundamental distinction between an outfield defender's diving tackle and a goalkeeper's slide tackle is that there is a reasonable expectation the GK is going to do that maneouver because they are permitted to use any part of their body to stop the attacking threat inside their circle. What is more difficult to understand, by players and umpires alike, is that the special privileges of a GK make them a larger 'target' to get around in the circle, but also more dangerous to field players all at once.

Both the GK and attacker are responsible for controlling their body. I've seen many attackers fly at the GK, put the ball straight at the GK when she's supine and then make no effort whatsoever to stop their momentum and basically flip themselves right over the GK in expectations of "earning" a PS and a yellow card for the GK... there is no difference between that and the situation where a field defender makes a perfectly legal tackle and the dispossessed attacker runs straight ahead and tries to bowl over or tumbles over the defender.

At the same time, the GK is not permitted to slide in an uncontrolled manner and take out an attacker who cannot protect themselves. There is no difference between that and a defender who runs madly at a player in possession of the ball, makes a legal tackle but does nothing to stop their momentum from barging into the attacker.

Physical, dangerous play is well covered in the rule book - just look (again) at the preamble to s. 9, 9.4 and particularly 9.13.

This whole notion of "getting the ball first" is simply a player's myth, a "key phrase" that they've heard bandied about and then acquires this whole new interpretation because it's basically taken completely out of context. It's not in the rule book and in my time never been part of a rules guidance or briefing.

So, speaker2, this is not a case where "GKs are immune to this rule" such that it needs to be reworded. It's another difficult area of umpiring that requires improvement.

Try Goalkeeper's slide tackle - legal?, Block slide, Sliding GK, Goalkeeper Slide Tackle... all in the PS and Goalkeeping sub-board (part of the Archives that no one is looking at any more).

[ivyleague]

i agree with Keely.