GK Carrying the Ball Between Gloves

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[dodgeyumpires]

Was taking an umpires course a couple of days ago for beginner umpires. All the usual stuff was taught/asked, a few video clips and some good responses. Then came question time.... All sorts of random scenarios that seem to only ever happen in the lower grades came up... this one in particular baffeled me... but the umpire who was a keeper actually managed to do it...

The question... what happens if a keeper catches the ball?

?

After finally working it out, the keeper managed to save a shot coming at him around chest height. the ball deflected straight up in the air in front of him. On the way back down, the goalie caught the ball mid air between his two gloves (like clapping) and ran away with the ball. HE then dropped it at the top of the circle and booted it away.... Whats the call? Play on, stroke, PC, yellow card?

Of course, having just been over the stroke rules (any intentional offence inside the circle is a stroke, no matter where it is in the circle) everybody was adament that it was a stroke. No matter what I said, no one would change their mind. My question to anybody who has a thought on it, what would you call? 2 scenarios, 1) shot on goal by a lone attacker, this happens. 2) shot on goal (not dangerous) and this happens. Whats your decision in each scenario?

Bizzarreeeee....

[keely]

Why don't we turn this around. Why did you think it wouldn't it be a PS?

[jtsoldier]

To me, isn't this the same scenario as GK smothering the ball, except they are doing it... at an elevated point? I mean... how is a player supposed to play that?

Then again, we let players in a vacant circle bounce the ball up on their stick and run with it - danger permitting - so maybe I can see where you are coming from.
I don't think the point is danger on this though.. a PS for danger would be.. an interesting situation.

[dodgeyumpires]

Why would it be? (in scenario 1) A player is allowed to carry the ball on the end of his stick, in the air safely right? As long as no one is unfairly disadvantaged, why cant a goalie do the same with his glove?
The moment he uses two gloves though, I suppose he is obstructing... players can no longer play the ball. But if no one is around, no offence... thats why I would play on. (scenario 1) If there were players in the circle though, ya.... a stroke seems fair and the right call.

[dodgeyumpires]

Thats what I was trying to get at, if he is alone.... play on. Every one seemed to think it should be a stroke, regardless. Thats why I asked

[Bondy]

Very interesting.

goalkeepers wearing full protective equipment and players with goalkeeping privileges are permitted to use arms, hands and any other part of their body to push the ball away.

Now this doesn't expressly permit GK to 'catch' the ball - but nowhere is it explicitly stated that it's not allowed - 9.11 (below) only applies to field players.

Field players must not stop, kick, propel, pick up, throw or carry the ball with any part of their body.

And the rules on procedures for PS appear to recognise that a GK can legitimately catch the ball.

The penalty stroke is completed when:...
b the ball ... is caught by the goalkeeper or player with goalkeeping privileges...

I think that, if anyone's around, then you get him for obstruction. If he's by himself (or only with teammates), then let it go.

The obvious extension to this is a Player with GK privileges (ie, helmet and different coloured shirt only) catching the ball and running to the top of the D before dropping it.

Simultaneous with jtsoldier and dodgeyumpires last posts...

[Bondy]

(any intentional offence inside the circle is a stroke, no matter where it is in the circle)

Sorry to be a pedant, but you know that this is not correct.

An intentional offence is only a stroke if it's against an opponent in possession or with the opportunity to play the ball.

[dodgeyumpires]

Awww get back to work Bondy... stop picking holes in my ridiculous scenarios... and I see Aj here as well... tell him to do some work. Arnt you his boss or something? Too much time on youor hands boys

 

[Pepe]

Instinctively, I would agree with Bondy. However, a related question springs to mind.

Is this the same as the ball becoming lodged in the keeper's kit? I have only ever seen this given as a PC, but I guess when Ii have seen it, there has always been other players nearby, so it was a no-brainer.

What would the decision be, for example, if the ball lodged in behind the keeper's pad just above the knee from an aerial ball which came bouncing into the D? No other players within 20 metres?

Would the same principle apply to the ball-between-the-hands scenario?

[Diligent]

The difference, Pepe, would be that 'lodged in the kit' tends to be accidental, but carrying the ball is an intentional play. So if the action obstructs any attacker from playing the ball - it's a PS like everyone says.

[Goalie64]

As I understand it, the keeper can only play the ball with their gloves as part of a goal saving action, or to move the ball away from the possibility of a goal scoring action.
I confess I have only ever thought of this as being one movement by the keeper.

By reading the rules I guess logically there is no prohibition on a second, third, fourth etc use of the glove as long as none are "forceful" and all are safe and moving the ball away from the "possibility of a goal scoring action"



 

[robinsafepads]

IMO it would depend on which other members of the game are inside the circle.

If the keeper is alone and does this, then I wouldn't have blown, and let play continue.

However if there is opposition players in the D, surely it would be deliberate obstruction as he is denying the attacking players the opportunity to play the ball (without danger) so it would be a PC at the very least (depending on the level) if a higher level then a penalty stroke.

[glossevans]

The difference, Pepe, would be that 'lodged in the kit' tends to be accidental, but carrying the ball is an intentional play. So if the action obstructs any attacker from playing the ball - it's a PS like everyone says.

Diligent,

Just for interest really, I have seen GK's in the past practice palming a ball down to deliberatly deflect it such that it lodges behind their pads.
The thinking being that if they were under a lot of pressure (outnumber by forwards for example), it may be a better option to concede the PC rather than try to make a save and clear the ball away / out of the D.
(Is that clear?)

These 'keepers you know, they are a sneaky bunch.

[Gilly]

Wow, that would be some skillful trick - but why not just save the ball 'at' one of the forwards to concede the PC (a much bigger target) or, indeed, just bat it away to the sideline?

[glossevans]

Gilly,

I have never, ever understood why 'keepers do what they do.