100% carbon stick for GK?

Discussion in 'Which stick? (includes Stick Reviews)' started by TandersGK, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. TandersGK

    TandersGK FHF Starter

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    Hi all,
    I am a goalie and was wondering if 100% carbon sticks would be good for me
    I do quite a bit of hitting with my stick and I want it to be powerful .
    I like the look of the dragon hockey c200.
    Dragon hockey is a uk based stick company, their sticks are very good looking and it would be good to support them.
    Thanks,
    TandersGK
     
  2. nemo

    nemo FHF All Time Great

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    Can you attach a link ???
     
  3. biggoaly

    biggoaly FHF Newbie

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    Someone let me know on this cause I’m not sure but I guess this is how it works? Isn’t it the higher Carbon Content the better because a Stiff Stick will have a harder touch meaning more rebound? I guess the only disadvantage is it’d be less forgiving in terms of shock absorption so you’d need a decent grip but bar that I assume it’d be better than let’s say a 50%? But then again I guess it’s all preference in terms of weight which effects the content because again the more Carbon the Lighter. Sorry pretty contradicting and vague answer but... yeah
     
  4. TandersGK

    TandersGK FHF Starter

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    http://dragonhockey.co.uk/
    Scroll down from the top and you should see the sticks
     
  5. sanabas

    sanabas FHF All Time Great

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    Wouldn't go near that as a goalie stick, due to price (over 350 aussie pesos, I could buy 2 of my preferred stick for that much) and it being described as an extreme low bow (25mm at 200mm - even more extreme than the gryphon samurai/d2 moulds).

    An extremely stiff stick as a keeper won't necessarily translate into better clearances, either. Same as a top of the line stick won't automatically make a 6th grade forward hit the ball harder at goal, it might lead to increased mishits & jarred hands.

    If you're hitting with your gk stick while standing, then you're doing it wrong. Even on the ground, clearing with stick can often be about sweeping it into space rather than taking a swing and hitting the ball. Most composite sticks are going to have enough oomph to do that effectively. Logging on PCs you want stick saves to be reliably going out for a long corner and not bouncing back into play.

    For me, what I want in a goalie stick is:
    1 - the weight & balance of it when in my hand and making saves from a normal ready position
    2 - pretty straight profile, especially don't want a low bow because there's more risk of stick save not going where I've aimed it if it hits near the end of the stick
    3 & 4 - head shape for playing ball on the ground to my left. Don't like the gryphon sentinel's kinked shaft, really don't want a field stick with a big hook head because of the gap it leaves. Handle shape for comfort & ease of extending stick - obviously personal preference, but I hate the sticks with oval grips, and even worse is the cheap wood stick usingsquare edges with a grip over it like https://www.justhockey.com.au/mazon-proforce-1000-gk.html
    5 - price. My kit's expensive enough without a stick that rivals my field stick for price.
    6 - what I'm used to. I've used an Obo Fatboy for at least 10 years, I think it's closer to 15 years old. When I replace it, I'll be getting another Fatboy.
     
  6. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    @biggoaly weight doesn't have much to do with it except internal balance (which you want as a goalie i.e. a well balanced stick). The idea of the carbon is to get an even better clearance on the rebound when diving/tackling/saving; although saying that you should be wanting to block with your rhp and 'punch' the shot away to control rebound best.

    Stick is more of an extension of your hand and also depends on technique. Going down with the newer smother technique than stick first means pads are prioritised over stick and blocking with rhp is becoming more ingrained.

    There are national league goalies that use them. James Fortnam at Cardiff uses an Adidas carbo, as does Tom Pinnegar (who's actually off to Oz now) - and have actually seen in person him smack a ball away in anger over the half way line at training. Pure carbon does increase the hitting power - but the technique/power has to be there already - like driving a motorbike using technique and muscle before changing over to electronically aided bikes.



    I know Tommy Alexander was using an Adidas almost a decade ago now when he was benching for Nick Brothers and then playing at Surbiton. Ian Scanlon was also using an Adidas when playing for GBU21's and HWHC. I think Tom Millington was at Lufbra but I'm probably wrong.

    As @sanabas rightly says @TandersGK it's better to get a straight profile and ask yourself what you want to get out of it.

    I.e. do you want it for ground work? Do you want a kink to block on the reverse (Maddie Hinch says she changes sticks for shuffles for this reason)? Do you want to use it to save when diving or on the upright (over rhp use)?

    Once you are looking at playing at the highest levels or have the money spare as an adult to worry about elite performance (which is where the slightest changes can make for bigger advantages i.e. slimming down on arm protection for full mobility/reactions), then you will probably want to consider shelling out on a top level stick. Work on your clearances/stick use and then think about maximising it through evolved kit.

    Get used to finding a stick that works for you and build from that. I have a dead straight old wooden stick that I use as a goalie stick because of its straightness for saving, blocks etc. If you want to go composite, then find one that has the lowest possible curve for shot blocking.
     
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  7. Nicola Harrison

    Nicola Harrison FHF Regular Player

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    Personally as a goalie I would not pay excessive amounts.
    I have Gryphon sentinel and they are stiff and great sticks without large budget. These are not expensive but great brand and great for stopping. I train with guys and women in yorkshire prem and have never had issue.
    The weight is good and the balance is great.
    I know I am bias towards Gryphon but I have had other sticks and they cracked quickly. So depends what you want but 100% carbon with hard hits will break the threading and weaken the stick.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Do remember that in the rules of hockey, the ball cannot be given more than 98% of the stick head speed under FIH testing procedures, as such whatever material it is, it can never give you more power than the stick swing speed so you'd do better looking at technique rather than looking for artificial boosts
     
  9. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    As others have pointed to already, the stick clearances you are only going to use this stick for, is on the ground after ground saves, or when the ball is near enough to eliminate the upcoming scoring chance by diving and clearing because you can't physically reach the ball in time to kick away.

    If the stick affects/impedes on your normal saving stick wise, is it really worth it, as these opportunities don't come up all the time?

    If you don't save with the stick much and prefer to use your hand more, then it won't be much of an issue, as with the case of national league standard goalies using them (for that extra edge, however minimal, because of their strong technical foundation).

    The stick gives you that extra distance you want to ensure the ball is cleared in this scenario.

    A la this example at 4:18



    Agree about the technique for power, but would argue that materials can have an artificial advantage. I've seen Pinner make long clearances up to the halfway mark in games with Beeston when he was using the GP01 Monarch versions with D3O inserts. Proper technique and power + materials = improved results. Kit in any sport has evolved the sport with advances in materials used in kit making. Wood to composite in ice and (our) hockey sticks and so on.

    It gives that slight edge that improves results over proper technique on its own. Like the Od1n range of ice hockey goalie pads or the promask flat pads.
     
  10. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    The point I'm making is that the materials LEGALLY CANNOT have an advantage in like for like models. If a carbon fibre stick and wood stick can both impart a maximum of 98% of swing speed to the ball, assuming technique is the same then they cannot offer any difference, that's basic physics. A stick that allows 90% of swing speed vs one that does 98% will have a difference but any stick doing more than 98% is illegal so won't be sold on the general market

    Now you could design the stick so it had a greater "sweet spot" or make a stick so a weaker player could get closer to imparting that full speed and if a certain type of material worked that way then you could gain some (probably marginal) improvement in hitting distance but the point here is that simply buying a different stick won't automatically mean you can hit further.

    There are various factors such as weight of the stick (a heavier stick can have more momentum if the player has the power) as well as materials and while carbon in a stick does give potentially more power than a wooden stick, if you don't have the ability to use it, simply going for more carbon in your stick isn't going to have meaningful effects.

    In your example, the ball is cleared to the edge of the D by goalie power, a player who couldn't clear the D in a swing isn't suddenly going to be able to do so just by buying a different stick with more carbon content as the stick cannot give more power than put in
     
  11. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    Except that there are already predetermined 'sweet spots' in certain outfield sticks - my adidas tt compo has an inbuilt curve where the sweet spot is, with the glass fibre and aramid - and is layered more strongly where the stick is striking them ball - for sleep hitting with power and beyond. The bottom of the stick needed for shooting power is the same as with saving (you want to be stopping shots with rhp around the low area of the stick instead of trying to save with stick), thus making it an easier choice.

    By "cleared" I meant, cleared out to the sideline. If that ball is cleared only out to the D and the goalie is still prone, then they could be beaten as they can't get up and back into the play again quickly enough to stop another shot. A goalie needs to "clear their lines" - for us it's out to the sidelines or beyond, especially if coming out of the D to intercept a free ball. You see modern goalies in football at the top of their game clearing to the sidelines for a throw so the momentum breaks down, the defence gets back and they can reset for the next play i.e. what Lloris does.

    I have seen Gareth Carragher clear with distance outside of the D with his Obo fatboy. Going down the gym/and or wrist weights in practise are going to be better than spending x amount on a stick, like you point out.

    I'm not disagreeing with you; the only reason for these sticks is that miniscule edge of an extra inch or yard when in these situations. As a kit choice similar to little to no arm protection combined with quick reflexes. Like wearing spikes for track running to be quicker by milliseconds.
     
  12. RushMan

    RushMan FHF All Time Great

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    Why do I think that this is an advertisement for Dragon Hockey?
     
  13. TandersGK

    TandersGK FHF Starter

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    I’m not sponsored or anything it’s just that their company seems good and has potential
    I tried to get it to not sound like an advert but it appears that I have failed...
     
  14. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    Not sure why it would come across that way as Tanders didn't even provide a link to begin with.

    @TandersGK wanted some advice on whether carbon sticks are capable of making good goalie sticks and thought it would be good to spend his money on supporting a local company (i.e. Monarch with the dead straight sticks branded for goalie use aren't available at the moment because of them shutting down for a year)...

    I thought it'd been established that carbon sticks can often give an even balanced stick for goalie use when making rhp saves compared to other outfield sticks, and that the carbon reinforced layering can add a small % of extra distance when clearing, but the slim difference is more an advantage in the top tiers of play and it'd be better to get used to a goalie stick or straight outfield stick.
     
  15. Simon_GK_Mason

    Simon_GK_Mason FHF Legend

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    Finding a stick that is the correct weight and balance is by far a better option than going for the Jeremy Clarkson target of 'pppooowwwweeeerrrrr' (power if that isn't clear). Only use Carbon % as the deciding factor of you have two sticks that feel the same in the hand. Even then the difference between 80 and 100% carbon is almost imperceivable. Save the cash and replace your kickers more often, the extra rebound from new foam is by far a better investment.
     
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  16. bluebird

    bluebird FHF Top Player

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    Except that there is not a single stick on the market remotely approaching these restitution figures. Hence a carbon stick will provide a significant power benefit over a wooden stick of the same profile (although as has been rightly pointed out, this is of questionable benefit for a GK).
     
  17. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I wonder if you have any proof of the statement below that no stick is close to that figure?

    Secondly you're assuming that a carbon stick automatically means more power transfer than any wood, do you have any proof of that as well? Carbon is certainly stiffer and CAN allow more power transfer, but "significant" gains cannot be assumed just based on the material. A stronger player will hit the ball further with a wooden stick than a weaker player with a carbon stick!

     
    #17 Gingerbread, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  18. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    Been studies into use of carbon in ice hockey sticks; ironically you could argue wood gives more power in the right hands as Zdeno Chara hit a record slap shoot with a wooden stick. Increased speed is suggested in the wrist shot more so, so could translate to lifted skills.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705814005876

    Carbon offers more flex in the design for the slap shot technique, but no real data for our sport.
     

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