1s players playing lower

Discussion in 'England Hockey' started by sord89, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. sord89

    sord89 FHF Star Player

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    What are peoples thoughts on players who have featured for their 1st XI in the national league comps playing for lower teams for the next few weeks?

    Obviously, this doesn't include starred players.

    Speaking as someone who has been on both sides of this personally, I have no problem with it. It may cause internal politics at clubs but if they are a member and not starred they should be able to play a team down if selected.

    I think if someone has played every week for the 1s until this point and then someone in the 2s normal squad has to play 3s then you cause problems at your own club but if its a kid, or someone who has been in and out of the 1s then there shouldn't be anything that stops them.
     
  2. sord89

    sord89 FHF Star Player

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    Obvs should have put this in the Eng comp forum. My bad
     
  3. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I agree it's naughty, if legal, like tax avoidance vs evasion. A second team scraping at the bottom of say a league 2 down from national who can bring in 2-3 top level players to keep the team up gives the team an unfair advantage. Team movement should always be up (with youth) or down (with age, as necessary) not for tactical reasons.
     
  4. lewijono

    lewijono FHF Starter

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    If they aren't starred it's difficult to complain about it really. I have been on the beneficial side of this unfortunately as I play for our 1s and our team is in North Div 2.

    What I do think shouldn't be allowed however is even if a player isn't starred, playing on a Saturday for a lower league team and then again on the Sunday for the national league team.
     
  5. murph

    murph FHF All Time Great

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    An intriguing one, as tour national league fringe players then wouldn't get enough pitch time!

    For info, isn't the same in every region, we don't have starred players in the Midlands!
     
  6. Willowsacorns

    Willowsacorns FHF Legend

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    A NL second team would normally (on paper anyway) be made up of 14 registered 1st team players excluding the 1st team match day squad of 16. Injuries will vary it as will availability obviously.

    Now what should happen if say a nailed on 1st teamer is unavailable for a week/coming back from injury and can only play at home due to other commitments. Should they be allowed to play 3s at home for match practice (if 2s are away)? In my eyes it’s yes absolutely.

    If the club are dropping players to bolster teams and avoid relegation then no - it’s wrong. But seriously how can you tell??
     
  7. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    The women do
     
  8. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Midlands women's league rules say

    NL teams have to nominate 11 (best players, play regularly for the team) who cannot play in Midlands League (these are Midlands rules)

    If the club has more than one team in Midlands leagues they have to nominate 8 for the top league team who cant play below and no more than 2 of the non-nominated players who normally play top team can play lower
     
  9. Willowsacorns

    Willowsacorns FHF Legend

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    Which is the reason why we need to make hockey simple with rules applying across regions - it is complete and utter BS.
     
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  10. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Having protection to stop teams using NL players to push for promotion/prevent relegation makes sense so a uniform rule in say England makes sense. If you name a match day first team squad of say 11 including a GK, it makes sense that they cannot play below first team hockey but the difficulty comes when you have a smaller club who may have less than 16 first team players who are under the same restriction as a club with say a good 16 squad plus maybe 5+ players pushing to play the top level who can use the larger squad to benefit their team. It's a balancing act. Then again, do you check if a player is starred to not play lower if you do a second team game for a club with a NL squad? Do you know which players play which teams? It all gets a bit confusing.
     
  11. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    We would never field even an occasional 1s player in the 3s. If they want to return to 1s they’ll manage to play 2s Home and away.
     
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  12. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    South women require NL team sheets every week to police this.
     
  13. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    All league sheets yeah but without some sort of ID card (as Midlands did for a while) and ID number there is little in the system to stop it being abused. I've heard anecdotally of even players given a red card continue to play for the team with a fake name
     
  14. murph

    murph FHF All Time Great

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    Apologies of course they do.
     
  15. Jacob0507

    Jacob0507 FHF Top Player

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    Works well in the London league, most teams will have a couple of fringe/bench players playing, raises the standard and most players in the league are national league registered anyway.

    Edit: In London prem that is
     
  16. JE87

    JE87 FHF Regular Player

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    Does this just have to apply to NL teams? Surely if a 3rd team had 1st team players in who were "only" regional prem, it would make an unfair advantage.

    Personally, I hate these rules. I understand why they are there - but for coaches who want to do things properly, it ties your hands. What if one of your "starred" players has a nightmare 3 weeks in a row, and you want him/her to play 2nd team because for many reasons (confidence, form, etc.). I know that some leagues allow you to change if they're a long-term injury, but otherwise you're stuck with them.

    In Germany we have to name 9 "starred" players, and any other players who have played 4 games for the team above cannot play lower. Last year, we had a few injuries so a few players played 4 games. Shoot forward to the 2nd half of the season, and I had the choice of picking these players over other players who were better, or not picking them and they don't play. 2 problems if they don't play - 1. How do they get better? 2. We're still in the main an amateur sport, they pay a subscription to be a member and play - so it makes it so much more difficult to drop them if they have no option to play a lower team in the club...Nightmare!!
     
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  17. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Thing is, if you have a player who is so much of a key part of the national league first 11 that he got starred, dropping him to the 2s several leagues below is going to give that team a massive advantage - in the Midlands for example with the closed leagues, that player is going to be in the 2nd team league which will be a walk in the park for him (e.g. Beeston first team player dropping down to 2nd team Midlands Prem) or Doncaster who play National North, their second team are 3 leagues below in North Division 2 East. I've played summer league in the lower end and the opposition brought a player from their 1st team (I had umpired him so I knew which team he played for) and he didn't need to put in more than about 50% effort to stop attacks and setup goals, he was so much better which makes it really unfair for the opposition.
     
  18. JE87

    JE87 FHF Regular Player

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    But if the player doesn't deserve to play for the 1st XI, does that mean it's fair that the player doesn't play at all? Even thought he pays his subscription and match fees like anyone else? What if they choose not to commit to an NL season but will play regional, or can only play at home because of work. That player is still a quality player, will still find the level pretty easy, and will still be deemed as unfair for the opposition.

    I understand it's becomes unfair when teams load their lower teams for promotion/relegation reasons, especially when the 1st team is safe so they strengthen teams that require the points that weekend. But how do you regulate those reasons, over genuine selection reasons? Because with the "starring" rule, it can be overly harsh, but without the rule some clubs will exploit it. Unfortunately, I have no solution for this...haha!
     
  19. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I think the principle is that the starred players will be the best ones and you should be able to rely on them to play to their best, even if they start on the bench, 11 (or even 8) starred players should be kept from being used to help lower levels hence having a blanket ban, to stop them being used at key times.

    If the person plays all season for the 2nd XI it's not the same as bringing them down to keep the 2nd XI up in the last few games of the season
     
  20. SPactionimages

    SPactionimages FHF Top Player

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    Dumb question maybe, but what is a starred player ? I can guess, but I haven't actually seen it in any rules.
     

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