1s players playing lower

Discussion in 'England Hockey' started by sord89, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. Stuart Burnside

    Stuart Burnside FHF All Time Great

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    The only time I see this as a 1s issue @sord89 is when the leagues don't overlap properly (ie the longer winter break in NL). That is a structural problem that should be thought about.

    The rest of the time, it's as true of any other team. Is not 1s specific. You should pick your teams in order of strength.

    Have I suspected folks of gaming it before? Yes. Have I been accused wrongly before? Yes - including of stacking a 9th team!
     
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  2. Babybel89

    Babybel89 FHF Starter

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    They key thing for me as mentioned by @Stuart Burnside is the structural problem whereby the league dates don't overlap.
    If the NL team are playing Sunday, then you would expect a few 'fringe' players to play for the 2s on the Saturday and then get some minutes for the 1s Sunday. The real difference comes when NL dates are on a Saturday because then the 1s will take the full 16 and the 2s will clearly be weaker. If you're a team pushing for promotion and you are drawn against a NL 2nd team on the NL break and your rivals are drawn against them on an NL Saturday, your team are at a clear disadvantage, in my opinion.
    This isn't a moan at the NL teams, as it is clearly within the rules and I would do exactly the same if I was in the position. However, I think the scheduling and structure needs work. They allow the NL to have a long break for Indoor hockey, but heaven forbid any team below NL would actually want to play any serious Indoor hockey. We are lucky enough that a team in our region organises a county indoor qualifier, however, due to the standard team wear and tear through the outfield season, we don't want to overdo it and have chosen to miss out on this to make sure we have a fully fit squad. Apologies for going off on a tangent!
     
  3. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Tends to be a regional decision. In Midlands for the women, they have to nominate a fixed number of starred players who are 1st team regulars who cannot play for lower teams to stop them trying to boost say their 2nd team to keep them up
     
  4. Rand

    Rand FHF Newbie

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    " They allow the NL to have a long break for Indoor hockey, but heaven forbid any team below NL would actually want to play any serious Indoor hockey. We are lucky enough that a team in our region organises a county indoor qualifier",

    There's a flip side to the accommodations made to indoor scheduling, which significantly disrupts both Regional sides who are not interested in playing indoors, and National League sides ditto, or individual players at National league clubs.

    In the East by example there are Regional indoor qualifiers pre-Christmas and Regional sides playing National League indoor post Christmas. This typically means at least a couple of Saturday games to re-arrange to slip dates, leaving little scope for games that might need rearranging for bad weather.

    The number of cup entries is sometimes criticised, but there are a lot of players who would choose outdoor over indoor every time.
    Whilst i understand and applaud England hockey promotion of the indoor game, the negative effect it has on outdoors rarely seems to be considered -
    whilst at the top end players can use their 8 week break either to guest for a select Indoor side, or play in India there are a lot of National League players who don't enjoy having no competitive fixtures in the middle of the season - i spoke to two of them yesterday, one male, one female, both kicking their heels whilst lesser mortals get to play - they both would have bitten someones hand off for a 2's game on Saturday, not because of any underhand team strengthening, but simply that outdoor hockey is their amateur sport of choice which they enjoy in their leisure time, and they don't enjoy an enforced mid season break.

    Why not play indoor hockey fixtures on Sundays, as with cup fixtures, thereby minimising disruption to the outdoor league season?
     
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  5. Thorney

    Thorney FHF Regular Player

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    This is sometimes the case, but not always, it does depend on how strong an individual club is at the top end. At times we (BrooklandsMU) have used some Saturday 2nd team players to make up 14/15/16 in the Sunday 1s squad, but this season, and I think over the last few years, they have picked two separate 16s, with no overlap, even if the games are on different days. Also the 2s maybe away to Whitley Bay on the Saturday, and the 1s away to Canterbury on the Sunday, unlikely any mug is going to go to both games :)
    One of our 1s 12-16 from the previous week played for the 2s yesterday to make up their 16 as they have had some injuries and absences, without those missing folks, I don't think he would have played (also he did start the season in the 2s and I'm fairly confident the 2s would avoid relegation without his contribution)

    I think there is more scope for "skulduggery" in the lower teams (as per @Stuart Burnside ) eg 4s+ as the players are generally well less known. I think the leagues do their best to police it, but you will always get incidents as clubs try to promote/keep-up various teams. I don't think it will ever totally go away.

    The play 4 times for a higher team, and then can't play lower as explained by @JE87 just doesn't make sense to me. We have one player this season, played the first 5 games for the 1s, and was then dropped to the 2s, but it would seem he wouldn't be allowed to play and his season would be finished after just 5 weeks? or you keep him in the 1s, even though there are better players than him - puzzling

    In a way this weakening/strengthening of teams, is just like the NL with the weeks when the big teams dom't have their international players available.
    It has to be easier to play Surbiton without 7 GB players, although I think we are playing them late January for some odd reason, so we won't find out how much easier. Other teams, may get luckier with the fixtures, that's just the way the cookie crumbles...

    Also isn't a good challenge to play against better players?
     
  6. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    I know South ladies doesn’t allow playing NL and regional in the same weekend.
     
  7. Babybel89

    Babybel89 FHF Starter

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    @Thorney Appreciate your point and have to agree. Of course it is a better challenge to play against better players and one I relish. However, an even playing field is all I ask. At my level, we don't register any players, officially, so who knows who you could be playing against. Just have to trust each other I guess!
     
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  8. Thorney

    Thorney FHF Regular Player

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    I am presuming it is allowed up here, as for example, Deeside Ramblers 2's included 2 players who played the next day for their 1s in the NL when they lost to our 3s.
    I think the rule is that youy cannot play for the 2s and then start for the 1s, but of course with rolling subs, nothing to say you can't join the fray aftr a notional 5 seconds play...

    I wonder if it has been abused more in your league, hence the very strict rule.
    What @murph said he did a few weeks ago, play in goal, and then play outfield, I am pretty sure is NOT allowed in the North/NW leagues.
    Keepers can play two games, but the 2nd game has to be for a higher team, but otherwise no-one can play two games on the same day.
     
  9. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    You can't play twice in Midlands either, officially, without approval of the league secretary, even GK as far as I am aware

    “Doubling-up” of players (i.e. playing in 2 league matches on the same day) is prohibited except where this has been sanctioned in advance by the Divisional Secretary of the lower team concerned.
    This prohibition also applies where the player in question may be playing out of his normal position e.g. a goalkeeper appearing as an outfield player.
     
  10. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    South police it by demanding EH match sheets.

    Noted to my league the other day that 3 players in a South match also played in the following match which I umpired. A definite no no.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  11. jonnyg

    jonnyg FHF Regular Player

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    How was it on Saturday did Fareham pit a few in??
     
  12. jonnyg

    jonnyg FHF Regular Player

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    A 2’s side with 16 my club could only dream of that!!
     
  13. Thorney

    Thorney FHF Regular Player

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    We had a 7s with 17 earlier in the season ... wrists have been slapped, apologies made, league aware.

    Numbers fluctuate at all clubs, big and small, we were down to 5 teams at one point, now back to 7 this season.
    Can be more fun with less than 16 as get more of a game sometimes.
     
  14. SPetitt

    SPetitt FHF All Time Great

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    I am rather sad that the days are gone when one always had kit in the boot of your car when going to watch a game and as a result got to be a 'guest star' for all sorts of clubs who were struggling for players on match day. Of course i was not good enough to stand out as a 'ringer' .... although I was once flattered to be considered one when I scored 4 (for my regular team) in NZ .... and it was usually lovely to play with players who were considerably better than myself :)
     
  15. FatForward

    FatForward FHF Top Player

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    My dad played for a few different clubs in his younger days when he turned up to watch and they were short - he drummed into me always take your kit. Playing in leagues has put paid to playing for other clubs but if I have a spare weekend and I'm watching one of my teams my kit is always with me (whether the captain laughs or not....)
     
  16. murph

    murph FHF All Time Great

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    100 percent correct - and I had said permission from divisional secretary and opposition :)

    Thoroughly enjoyed it. Our back to hockey keeper got some tips, the brand new hockey players got some experience around them, I bagged a goal but we lost 3-1. Nobody suffered, I had some great chips.
     
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  17. Babybel89

    Babybel89 FHF Starter

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    A couple of names stood out as 1st teamers, but didn't seem packed to be fair. Imagine it was better than they get some weeks, but nothing silly. We were just incredibly poor in the final third and they were clinical, main difference. I saw your 2s won, did they have a couple 1s in?
     
  18. JE87

    JE87 FHF Regular Player

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    As I said, I understand why it's there, but I was wondering if there was a better way of doing it. Besides, starting on the bench these days isn't so relevant - but being picked purely because they are starred, is difficult.
     
  19. JE87

    JE87 FHF Regular Player

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    Problem is...the bad weather in January. Outdoor is so much more enjoyable when it isn't freezing outside! Play longer into the summer - ruins plans for those who also play cricket, but quite a lot of people play summer league anyway, so I don't see why the leagues don't run later. It's essentially what happens in the countries who take indoor seriously and winter's are particularly harsh - Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc.
     
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  20. JE87

    JE87 FHF Regular Player

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    Yep, we had that exact situation - had to select more than one player because they had played 4 games before the Christmas break over others who deserved to play. I rotated them a few times but as club members who paid, they have a right to play some sort of hockey, yet ineligible to play 2nd team.
     

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