Card or Not?

Discussion in 'Goalie Zone' started by NightFox, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. NightFox

    NightFox FHF Starter

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    Made a really, really dumb mistake this weekend. Loose ball had come from the opposition's half, having last come off one of our players' sticks and was heading for the end line. Everyone else was still around the centre line just leaving the ball to run out of play except one of our backs chasing the ball but still a long way behind it.

    Realising he wasn't going to be able to stop the ball going over the end line for a corner, I casually strolled out wide to intercept the ball and calmly kicked it back to him. No sooner had I kicked it than a little voice in my head said "errr, you do realise you're about 5m outside the D?". I don't think anyone else could actually believe what they'd just seen, so play continued for several seconds before it sunk in and a short corner was given.

    But the discussion that ensued at half time and after the game was should I have been carded? If I'd made a deliberate illegal contact outside the D in the midst of an attack, then without a doubt. But this was a situation where the nearest attacker was barely over the centre line, and whilst I did technically gain an advantage by preventing a long corner, it was such a slow ball that there's no doubt I could have stopped it with my stick with no effort if my brain had been properly engaged. I'd argue that in those circumstances a penalty corner was sufficient in itself, but should I have been carded on top of that?
     
  2. murph

    murph FHF All Time Great

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    Going to watch this with interest - I'd definitely be expecting a rest for that though.
     
  3. G

    G FHF All Time Great

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    The thing that’s been drummed in to me recently is that the penalty must fit the crime.

    A card here seems unnecessarily harsh for what, would be apparent to everyone, is either inexperience or a major brain fart.

    As you point out, no attacker was disadvantaged by you actions, so I’d say a PC and a word from the umpire is enough.

    *disclaimer I am an ex-goalie and I’ve never done something that silly

    ** part of the above disclaimer is untrue


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  4. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Shall I move this to the Umpiring thread, @NightFox, to see what kind of answers you get there?

    For me, if it was an obvious brain-fade rather than a deliberate attempt to cheat, I'd definitely be happy with a PC and no card.
     
  5. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    PC yes if no players nearby.

    Attacker nearby you'll be sitting down for 5 minutes unless it was really low level game when I might be tempted to do 2
     
  6. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    I would agree with the prevailing opinion, however I have had 5 minutes to sit and think about what I have done for being inside the circle let alone outside it, what will happen really depends on the umpire and their desire to be heard/respected/mighty.

    I think what makes it especially clear in your situation is that you were clearly not racing anyone to the ball and clearly not going outside the circle quickly to stop something from happening otherwise. Thus, as @redumpire said, it was clearly brain fade. A card seems vindictive.
     
  7. Goalie64

    Goalie64 FHF All Time Great

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    DoD for sure though.
     
  8. MunchkinGK

    MunchkinGK FHF All Time Great

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    I got green-carded and a PC against me at the beginning of season. I was inside the D, the ball was apparently outside, with an incoming attacker. (I know I was inside the D, as I kicked with my right foot, left foot stayed stationary and when I put my right foot back down, I saw the edge of the D in front of me, and didn't move until I was sent off the pitch.)
    We all thought it was harsh, but the umpire turned out to be a bit power hungry anyway. I tried to argue with him, but I didn't want to risk getting it upgraded...
     
  9. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    I was subject to almost exactly the same scenario, although the player flicked the ball into my knee. The green card was not a 2 minute suspension back then so I was privileged to receive a yellow card for my troubles.
     
  10. F1-mania

    F1-mania FHF Legend

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    It's a moment of stupidity, rather than anything malicious. I think it's disproportionate to the actual crime having been committed to have the goalkeeper sit down for any length of time. The opposition has already been give a rather nice bonus of a PC rather than a long corner, and as there was nobody anywhere in the vicinity I'd argue there were not disadvantaged (beyond not getting a long corner, but that hardly seems cardable).

    Now, do the same thing with an attacker anywhere near a chance of playing it, yellow card for sure. There's obviously a caveat to that - I've been in the situation where the ball left the circle again due to an attacking touch and my momentum made me touch it with my pads. That's a PC, no card, as the intent was to play the ball in the D. Obviously, some umpires will blow that differently, but I'd be extremely upset if they did so.
     
  11. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    If you're outside the D and upright and moving and the attacker flicks the ball into you like a "forced foul" as was, I'd be inclined to give the PC (for being out of the D and stopping attacker progressing with your body) but no card, not the GK fault attacker is too stupid to just roll it around your non-stick side. If logged or static, I remain unconvinced that it should be a PC as the GK is allowed outside the D and has not tried to make the foul thus doesn't meet the criteria of the deliberate foul by the defence
     
  12. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    If I am outside the D and the attacker flicks the ball into my body, why don't I get a free hit for a dangerous lift of the ball?
    The rules state clearly that a GK outside their circle should be treated like a field player.

    Lets not also forget that I was in the D at the time, similar to @MunchkinGK's scenario.
     
  13. ironman

    ironman FHF Top Player

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    Because you've got a GK kit on so it's not dangerous
     
  14. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    In the D and a ball flicked into your pads isn't a foul so not sure what is going on there?

    The rules on danger are fairly open ended so we use the shin pad height as a guide for outfield players as they have no knee protection. A full kitted keeper is not going to be injured by a ball flicked into their pads (obviously different when we're talking a hit or a goalie on the ground where padding can move etc)
     
  15. F1-mania

    F1-mania FHF Legend

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    I remember an argument being made on the umpiring forum that the act of being outside the D with your kit was intentional, and thus any use of your kit of the kit, accidental or otherwise should be penalised as an intentional offence - hence PC. Not a view I subscribe to personally. I feel like if I go out to try play the ball like a field player and the rules state I am a field player outside my D, then any non intentional foot should be a FHA rather than a PC. However, I'm never going to see it blown like that, so I'm going to stay in my nice, safe, semi-circle.
     
  16. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Bad umpiring.
     
  17. AndyGaut

    AndyGaut FHF All Time Great

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    As all said before, no player near you Short Corner and a jokey word in your ear as to how many pints you're buying after the game etc. Players, nearby you are taking a 5-minute breather on the naughty step.
    I have fallen foul of this on a head-first clearance outside the D when I completely missed the ball and nutted it instead, Oh how we all laughed. Yes, I got DoD!
     
  18. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Regular Player

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    Quick read of 9.9 and 10.5 leads me to the conclusion, assuming the GK is within 5 (and not charging in) that it should be a FHD for a raised ball. 9.9 makes no exception for GK's. As to whether any contact with the keepers pads outside the circle is a PC, I'd judge it on what the keeper is doing at the time, ie if they've clearly made a bad judgement and are retreating only to have the ball played into them I'd be disinclined to award anymore than a FHA, unless they make some attempt to play the ball with their pads.

    Sent from my VFD 710 using Tapatalk
     
  19. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Yeah...

    Good luck with selling that decision. A flicked ball intending to pass the GK that wouldn't hurt a defender that hits the GK pads, FHD for danger.... You'd have a riot on your hands
     
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  20. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    9.9 does, however, relate specifically to raising the ball with a hit...
     

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