Card or Not?

Discussion in 'Goalie Zone' started by NightFox, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Far be it from me to be a pedant but the bit of 9.9 being referred to here is actually about flicks, not hits :p

     
  2. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Ah yes, as you were! :oops:

    (Nothing wrong with being a pedant, by the way. One person’s pedantry is another’s accuracy.)
     
  3. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Regular Player

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    I'll try be more accurate next time =)

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  4. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Regular Player

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    Perhaps I've muddled my meaning in there somewhere, my meaning was that in the scenario you just outlined I'd in general apply a FHA unless I deemed the keeper to have played the ball in which case PC, as far as my understanding of the definition the ball touching a player and playing the ball are not the same thing.

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  5. The chief

    The chief FHF Legend

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    Please no! We'll never hear the end of it, and he'll end up having an MMO sent to the league.
     
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  6. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    I was just a bit confused by the below statement where you appear to be suggesting that a raised ball against a keeper should be a FHD?

     
  7. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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  8. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Regular Player

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    Outside the circle, where they would be considered a field player, and I was thinking of the scenario where it is striking above the GK's waist, not their pads. My reasoning being that subject to the GK attempting to play the ball I'd consider the play dangerous as the guidance does not differentiate between a keeper and a field player. I accept that the keeper is in pads, but the rules don't distinguish between a GK outside the circle and a field player. Perhaps it's just common sense to always be a FHA or PC irrespective of the situation, but having read the rules it is my understanding that FHD is a possibility.

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  9. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Furthermore a GK doesn't have to wear a chest guard.

    4.4 Goalkeepers must wear protective equipment comprising at least headgear, leg guards and kickers


    Therefore anything above that, it cannot be guaranteed that a keeper is protected and an umpire should not make that decision on behalf of a keeper.
    Couple that with:

    10.5 When the ball is outside the circle they are defending, goalkeepers or players with goalkeeping privileges are only permitted to play the ball with their stick. A player with goalkeeping privileges is considered to be a field player when outside the circle they are defending.


    It is clear when both these rules are understood that a keeper outside their circle should receive the same protection and assumptions as a field player.
    If they are making no attempt to play the ball with their stick and are just running in to block the play then as you would with a field player, you would award a PC and possibly a card. If they try to play the ball with their stick and the ball misses their stick and hits their foot or is on the ground and hits their body, then you award a FH because it was unintentional, as you would with a field player.

    We like to add interpretation along the lines of "well a keeper is special and as such if they come out their circle, they must know they are going to get carded and a PC awarded".
    Yea, they may think that until the read the rule book which explicitly says otherwise. It says in no uncertain terms that they should be considered a field player and therefore subject to the same restrictions and protections as a field player.
     
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  10. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    A goalkeeper is never considered a field player.
    A player with goalkeeping privileges is considered a field player when outside the circle they are defending only.
     
  11. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Regular Player

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    I misread that bit thanks for pointing it out

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  12. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    That's a fair point and one which worrying eluded me when reading the rules.

    On that point though I would ask the following:

    How should a GK be treated when they are not in the circle? It is written clearly that they are entitled to play inside the 23m area, so it must be expected by the creator of the rules that a GK will legitimately operate beyond the point where they can opt to use their body to play the ball. So what rules should apply to them there?

    There is certainly nothing written to say that they are to be treated with especial harshness regarding the ball being played into their body, there is no precedent that I can see to suggest that if they are not in the circle and a player lofts the ball into them, that the GK is to blame because they "must know that was going to happen". So I can only resort to the recourse of treating them like any other player in that instance.
    Coupled with the fact that a GK is not necessarily protected above the knee (no requirement for shorts/chest/arm protection in rule 4.4), it cannot be unambiguously assumed that lifting a ball into a GK is safe, neither can it be assumed therefore that a GK is happy for such to be done to them, very much like a field player. You would not assume that a field player, when going for a ball with their stick, s prepared to have the ball lifted into the soft fleshy, nerve filled part of the inner thigh which forwards seem to delight in applying hockey balls to.

    I would still treat a GK like any other player outside the D. Subject to the caveat that if they are not trying to play the ball with their stick and just blocking, to hell with them, they can go for a 5 minute rest. Just like a defensive field player.
     
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