Management & Communication FHA or PC - ball lifted into circle

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by Majordomo, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. Majordomo

    Majordomo FHF Newbie

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    Myself and a colleague were faced with the following scenario on Saturday.

    Play is with the attack inside the 23 approaching the circle. The ball is hit into the D and takes a deflection off a defensive stick raising the ball to well over the players heads. The ball is coming down into a group of players inside the D. I whistle and award a PC. The rationale was that the ball was came off a defensive stick and the danger was created inside the D. The defensive team questioned the decision and I was happy to consult my colleague. My question to him was "The ball was lifted outside the circle however the danger was created inside the D" - "Free-hit where the ball was lifted or PC?". My colleague agreed with my original decision and the corner was played out.

    We were then umpiring together again on Wednesday and we continued to discuss the above - We are not sure if we made the right call.

    Looking forward to the thoughts of the forum ....
     
  2. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    The danger was created by raising the ball.
    That happened outside the circle. Give FHA. Never a PC.
     
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  3. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Your post needs to be clearer to answer

    In your second sentence describing the scenario it reads as if you meant the ball is hit into the D and THEN takes a deflection
    Your question to your colleague states the ball was lifted OUTSIDE the D

    If the deflection was inside the D, PC is correct, if it was outside the D, it should be a FHA. The foul is the lift, not where it landed when it's going into a crowd.
     
  4. Majordomo

    Majordomo FHF Newbie

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    Apologies, the hit into the D hit a defenders stick outside the D and was then raised. The rise of the ball was safe, the fall of the ball was into a crowd and I deemed to be dangerous.

    I am expecting to hear that my decision was wrong as my colleague and I have really tried to work through this ....
    Hopefully I have explained things better now
     
  5. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    In which case, yes it should have been FHA outside the D, the lift caused the danger and the foul is taken at point of lift. You'd only do a PC if, for example, there was an attacker waiting to receive an aerial as the clear receiver and a defender encroached (PS might be technically correct but PC is safer decision to "sell")
     
  6. Majordomo

    Majordomo FHF Newbie

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    Thank you .... I have to say that I think I agree with you and both myself and my colleague got it wrong .... I guess after giving the decision I had a seed of doubt hence my willingness to consult. Had my colleague doubted my decision I would have been happy to change. We have both discussed the matter since and he knows I am posting the question here. We will both learn from the feedback.
     
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  7. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    You can't have the rise be safe and the fall be dangerous. They're both the same thing, the ball being raised.
    If another action is what made it dangerous, neither the fact that the ball was lifted nor where it was raised are relevant at all.
     
  8. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    Have we not agreed in numerous other threads that a deflection is considered a raised ball as well? And also that we judge a raised ball separately at the point of raise, flight and landing; so if the raise and flight were safe, then we award the penalty at the point of landing?

    So from your description: raise and flight were safe, landing not. We penalise the landing, so PC is correct.

    On the other hand, a PC for such an offence is a heavy penalty. So I think no one would argue with a FHA.
     
  9. Bondy

    Bondy FHF Legend

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    It's a fair point. I would suggest that you need to consider whether the players in the crowd around the receiver had the opportunity to give the 5m space.
    • If the ball is raised from a long distance (e.g. aerial from halfway), then there's plenty of time for the players to move. The player who raised the ball does so, knowing that if other players follow the rules then it will be safe on landing - so the danger is caused by the players at landing, and that's where the offense is
    • If it's raised from a short distance and the players around the landing don't have time to move, then the danger is caused by the player who raised the ball - because it was inevitably dangerous from the moment it was raised.
    The OP for me, falls into the second category, so I would be giving a FHA at the point of the deflection.
     
  10. Majordomo

    Majordomo FHF Newbie

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    I think it is this view that has made us doubt the decision we agreed at the time. With hindsight and the calm allowed by reviewing after the event I am sure we would have awarded a FHA rather than the PC.

    Oops ....
     

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