Foul or not?

Discussion in 'Indoor Umpiring Questions' started by MKochar, Jan 30, 2017.

  1. MKochar

    MKochar FHF Super Star

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  2. ironman

    ironman FHF Top Player

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    Yup I'd say that looked like a foul... pretty important decision!

    This also looks like drilling -
     
  3. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Not. I guess, @MKochar, you are referring to the opening seconds, where the Reading (blue) attacker jinks the ball to his left, but loses balance and bumps into the EG (white) defender. The ball runs free for EG to attack and score. All looked fair enough to me.

    As to the drilling, @ironman, the turn and fire (near end of clip to set up the shot) did not seem hard enough to risk injury. At lower levels we might well penalise that, as a discouragement, but in this national final I'd guess the umpiring team would need to see a much harder 'drill' to cross the 'dangerous' line. Good umpiring to see the clear foot but allow advantage to develop.
     
  4. ironman

    ironman FHF Top Player

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    "Playing the ball deliberately and hard into an opponent’s stick, feet or hands with associated risk of injury when a player is in a ‘set’ or stationary position; and players collecting, turning and trying to play the ball deliberately through a defending player who is either close to the player in possession or is trying to play the ball are both dangerous actions and should be dealt with under this Rule. A personal penalty may also be awarded to offending players."

    Any time a player has the ball in their hook and turns and plays it into a defender there is potential for danger.
     
  5. BlindGoalie613

    BlindGoalie613 FHF All Time Great

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    That's a turn and spin that's hit his left hand on the stick, which was flat against the ground. Surely that's a drill???
     
  6. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    OK, watched it again, and you are right: the umpire would have seen it hit the hand holding the stick (not foot) so not PC/advantage.

    My point is that it was not a particularly hard spin - the player hit on the hand took no notice and continued playing. And while at my local level I would agree with @ironman and penalise that spin, I'll accept that, at this top level, umpires would draw the line differently and play on (not dangerous enough).
     
  7. johnreiss

    johnreiss FHF Top Player

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    For me its a v.close call, Attacker turns and spins. That is legal. What he does next is critical. he either pushes the ball into the defender which is illegal or the ball is going passed the defender which is legal. With my poor eyesight, it is a close call,. My gut feeling, at this level, is that it was not dangerous and therefore not a drill. At the lower levels, I think I would take the view that it was potentially dangerous and therefore illegal.

    Judging by the non-engaged body language ump I think the was possibly asked by his colleague who was v close to the play. he decided no drilling therefore goal, but at this level it is a close but correct call.
     
  8. ironman

    ironman FHF Top Player

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    If you slow the video down you can clearly see the ball goes straight into the defenders glove - he actually ends up on his backside - I think he was off balance but was also on the backfoot as a precaution with the player spinning into him and not wanting to be on the end of the follow through.

    Took no notice? He ends up on the floor and doesn't have a lot else to do than keep playing and then throws his hand whilst looking at and walking towards the umpire, presumably to debate the decision!?

    I agree with you that on this occasion it wasn't 'physically' dangerous because the ball wasn't going fast enough to cause injury, however, it is the type of skill that can be dangerous/lead to danger and therefore think it should have been blown as a free hit defence (as you would do at local level). Although the ball wasn't travelling quickly, it could have been and the Sevenoaks defender has no idea where and how hard the stick is going to follow through.

    If you umpire on the basis that you are waiting to see if it's 'dangerous enough' you are essentially saying that the defender has to put their body on the line to see whether or not they wear one to get the free hit.
     
  9. sord89

    sord89 FHF Star Player

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    Both fouls.

    Reading player is knocked over and given no chance of retrieving the ball by a player who commits to a tackle and gets it wrong. Accidental but he physically stops the Reading player getting to the ball or even attempting to get to a ball that is well within playing distance.

    Surbiton one is drilling. Probably got away with it because of the lower pace but it's still drilling. Spins into the space in which the defender is occupying and set/setting even if he is a little off balance.
     
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  10. JE87

    JE87 FHF Regular Player

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    I reckon both would be given as fouls here in Germany. They're particularly strict with 'drilling' here, ok the spin could've been harder but it certainly could've been softer as well!
     
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  11. Mick Mason

    Mick Mason FHF Top Player

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    The first one is a foul every day of the week surely.....
    "
    9.14 Players must not tackle unless in a position to play the ball without body contact.
    Reckless play, such as sliding tackles and other overly physical challenges by field players, which take an opponent to ground and which have the potential to cause injury should attract appropriate match and personal penalties."
     

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