Safety & Danger GK takes out player

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by Jonny3012, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. phi11ip

    phi11ip FHF Top Player

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    Ha, guessing I'm missing all the fun then! I've never had to send a keeper off myself so I'm only going by what I've seen towards the middle of the East leagues. I don't actually think any of the umpires knew it wasn't a rule, which made it more amusing.

    Definitely wasn't going to correct the umpire the last time I saw it happen though. Was thrilled that he let us replace our keeper for the upcoming PS!
     
  2. Mick Mason

    Mick Mason FHF Top Player

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    Our juniors have provision in the competition rules to allow 5 minutes to change kit in the event of a suspension, but not for any time to change back. If the GK gets sent in the first half they might get to change back at half time, but if it is two people and one set of gear, and it is after half time, then the replacement GK has to just play it out. Of course, they can put on a KB to give them time, but the game wont be stopped for them.
    "6.7. If a goalkeeper is suspended from play, a period of up to five (5) minutes is allowed for a replacement goalkeeper to be fielded but no time shall be added to the game."
     
    #22 Mick Mason, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  3. Stephen65

    Stephen65 FHF Legend

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    In my experience if the ball is in front of the forward and the GK slides out and takes the ball off the forward's stick then even if the forward goes flying over you its almost never awarded against the GK. How the umpire can possibly tell in the microsecond between the ball being played by the GK and the two colliding whether one or both were still in motion and which one is beyond me. In my view a forward who runs into the D with the ball has to expect that the GK will likely come out to smother the ball and its perfectly legit for a GK to smother by going to ground.

    As an aside I think there must be a difference in umpiring philosophy between the UK and Australia because if I judged solely by this forum some UK umpires seem very keen to find a reason to hand out YCs. I've played more than 20 seasons of hockey in Australia, including at the highest State level, and got precisely one yellow card. I could also count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've seen opposing GKs sent off and thats having played many hundreds of games.
     
    #23 Stephen65, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  4. Jonny3012

    Jonny3012 FHF Newbie

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    The result of the original situation was a PS with no card. The forward was in the process of changing direction turning away from the keeper when the keeper slid out taking player and not really touching the ball. Think he was going for the ball but was just too late, a better keeper would have stayed on their feet!
     
  5. Inselaffen

    Inselaffen FHF All Time Great

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    think I've seen the youtube clip of this and have to agree it was definitely a PS and probably should have been a YC
     
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  6. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Starter

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    Just curious, if they were insistent on swapping could you just go through with the PS with no one in goal? Or am I just really mean in my thought process here

    Sent from my VFD 710 using Tapatalk
     
  7. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    You are being really mean in your thought process there.
    Explain patiently that they can put a field player in goal, who can only save with the stick, or a player with GK privileges, who will wear a different colour shirt and a helmet (no kickers or GK hand protectors), and may save with any part of body. Let's go.

    Tip - Do insist on the different colour shirt for the PwGKP before the PS. After the excitement of a score, miss or save, things can move on quite quickly. Then the apparent field player saves, but claims to be the PwGKP so it's ok, and we have a situation...
     
  8. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Starter

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    I was assuming I'd had that conversation and been totally ignored

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  9. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    If the captain ignores you then you must discipline the captain.
     
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  10. philthy

    philthy FHF All Time Great

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    I think there's a difference in umpiring philosophy between when umpires are sat at their keyboards and with the whistle in their hand...

    I also have very, very rarely seen a GK sent off. And very few cards in general in the ladies game in county/regional level. But if you went by what you read on here every umpire is sending players off left right and centre.
     
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  11. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    Or the events that actually deserve a card are rare, and an even smaller proportion are actually given, and this entire thread is about that type of event so of course every statement will be along such lines.
     
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  12. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Starter

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    On the grounds that the taking of a flick must not be delayed.

    Sent from my VFD 710 using Tapatalk
     
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  13. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Starter

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    There have been two occasions in the past month where after the fact I thought "should have been a card" but I got caught up on awarding a PC or PS.

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  14. Inselaffen

    Inselaffen FHF All Time Great

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    don't ever remember seeing a striker carded for sliding in to get on the end of a cross and ending up clattering the keeper
     
  15. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    The card / discipline for delaying the flick is really intended for the attack/defender taking part e.g. goalie refusing to stand on line after being told to, not to punish the captain for this behaviour at the first instance - you can't really card the captain for something he can't control (or rather you have to give him a chance to exert control).

    Unless the captain is the GK, the players should all be out of the 23m anyway so the GK messing around during the stroke isn't something the captain can immediately deal with (if he's even noticed, they may be in a huddle not facing the stroke). To expand on that, if you gave the GK a YC after awarding a PC you can't apply that rule as it is intended for strokes! You can however discipline the captain for refusing to allow the game to continue by not putting a player in under the time wasting rules or not doing his job in controlling the substituting .
     
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  16. Bondy

    Bondy FHF Legend

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    It really helps to have a clear process in your mind when you are making decisions like this - that will help you make consistent decisions and be clear in your mind what is the correct decision.

    For me, I would be going through the following set of questions:
    1. Who caused the contact? This could be:
      • striker running into near-stationary GK (in which case, play on unless you judge that there's grounds for FHD)
      • GK sliding into striker (in which case, probable PC or PS depending on the remaining questions)
      • neither/both (e.g. the striker doesn't have the ball under control, and the two players collide while running for a loose ball - in which case, play on, unless the GK misses the ball and gets the striker)
    2. Did the GK deliberately go to ground, or did they just slip over? (If it's a slip, and you still judge it to be a foul, then no card, and a PS only if it stops a probable goal)
    3. Was the ball in a position where the GK could have played it? (if not, PS and probably YC10)
    4. Did the GK make a clear attempt to play the ball and not the attacker?
      • If he's obviously trying to get the ball only and is beaten by a skilled attacker, I'm probably giving a PS for probable goal, but might give a PC if there's a lot of other defenders around.
      • If it's a "stop the ball or the player and I don't really mind which", then PS and probably YC depending on level of contact/danger
    I'm also thinking about where the ball is in relation to both players.
    • If the striker is dribbling with the ball in front, then it's usually the striker who's run into the GK - unless the GK has really slid a long way.
    • If the striker has his back to the GK, then the answer to 3 is probably "no"
    • If the ball is to the side, then I'm making a judgement call on 4
    Note that this applies for GK and PwGKP when in the circle - there's a much shorter checklist for sliding field players, and most of the answers involve sitting down :-D

    I'd also never (outside of a few mandated exceptions - e.g. moving early on PS twice) give a GC to a keeper... If it's not bad enough for a YC, I just don't think it's worth the hassle for 2 minutes.
     
  17. SPactionimages

    SPactionimages FHF Top Player

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    I was playing in a game a couple of seasons ago where the attacker was stationary, roughly on the p spot with his back to the goal and the ball in front of him. The keeper came out, went to ground and slid through the player taking him out. I have thought about this incident on and off for the last two seasons and what I would give in a similar situation if it arose, to me the original situation would be a PS and RC. The attacker could have sustained a serious, career ending injury and our first priority is player safety.

    The fact that I believe the goalkeeper was a novice between the sticks, but an experienced player, would make no difference to my decision.

    Anybody disagree?

    EDIT actual decision given was a PC no card, but then I believe we were talking low level club umpires
     
    #37 SPactionimages, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  18. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    I'll disagree with a red card, which I reserve for serious physical or verbal violence - on the 3 occasions in 12 years of matches umpired. Playing offence will be yellow if seriously reckless, making it 10 minutes if cynically or dangerously reckless.

    Maybe one day I'll see a playing offence worthy of red (there are video clips), but hasn't been yet.
     
  19. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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    Early on in my appointed career I did a game where a player had beaten another and was moving away, player took a swing at the player's legs and hit him as he was moving away, can't imagine that was a proper tackle but deserved the red; another early on after they allowed no GK on the pitch and a team was losing and tried 11 outfield, other side broke and someone shouted "take him out" at the defence and I think if they had deliberately brought the running player down I'd have gone red as well
     
  20. Jonny3012

    Jonny3012 FHF Newbie

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    The decision I would go for us PS plus YC5 (potentially 10 for dangerous play).
     

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