indian hockey

Discussion in 'India' started by judson gabriel, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. judson gabriel

    judson gabriel FHF Newbie

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    what lacks indian hgockey
     
  2. John

    John FHF Legend

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    Everyone knows this is nowhere
    Everywhere apart from India?
     
  3. jaduong

    jaduong FHF Legend

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    this question reminds me of a stale joke my father used to tell:
    Three old men are sitting around and chewing the fat, discussing their 100th birthdays when God decides to surprise them with a visit. He tells them that he'll answer one question from each of them.
    The first man, an American, asks Him when America will come out of the recession. "It will take a hundred years before that happens" says God solemnly. The American starts crying. "I shall never live to see that day," he says through his sobs.
    The second man, a Russian, asks Him when Russia will become a prosperous world power again. "That will take fifty years to happen," booms God. The Russian starts crying. "Even i will not live to see that happen" mourns the Russian sorrowfully.
    Finally, the last man, an Indian, thoughtfully rubs his chin. "Oh Deva, when will my beloved India be free of corruption and nepotism?" he asks after a while. The lord considers the question for a short while and then bursts into rivers of tears. "I will never live to see that happen!" cries God to the man.

    based on this crappy little apologue, I imagine that my father was trying to draw humorous attention to the fact that corruption is rife in India. So, from this, I would say that, what Indian hockey lacks is a transparent, coherent system where selection of players and officials is done on merit rather than who one knows, or not as may be the case. I would also imagine that facilities need to be improved upon (this is from speaking to an Indian player who plays/played in the north conference a season or so ago). Other than that, perhaps you have some ideas to share about what can be done better?
    I would just like to see an India team that does not force the ball deep up the wings and try to hammer a cross into the D and then just stand about once the defender has stopped the cross and played the ball out to a team-mate. run back and get eleven behind the ball!
     
  4. John

    John FHF Legend

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    Heartbreaking, You've gone metaphysical and realistic on me in one fell swoop. I was really enjoying poor English and deliberate confusionism.
     
  5. jaduong

    jaduong FHF Legend

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    haha. well, Confusion he say...man who abuse his computer get bad bytes.
     
  6. don

    don FHF Newbie

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    At first glance you may think that the idea of weight classes in a team sport is ridiculous, but hear me out.

    We have weight classes in individual sports like Judo or Wrestling so that in a contest of two individuals, skill more than physical strength plays the most important part. It is considered blatantly unfair to expect a lower weight class athlete to compete against a higher weight class athlete.

    In team sports there are no weight restrictions. This is on the assumption that the weights average out for the team and no decisive advantage is held by any team on the basis of weight. This is true in many cases, especially for teams from the same country or the same continent.

    But people in South Asia are significantly smaller and weigh less than Europeans. Asian hockey teams weigh at least 10-15 Kg less on average than Europeans. This weight advantage is decisive. In junior level tournaments where the wight difference is not so great, Asian teams do well but at senior level they are physically dominated to such an extent that nothing else matters, no ball skills, no positional awareness nothing.

    Of course some people would suggest that Asian players should bulk up, should put on weight but that would not be natural, it would not be healthy and defeat the very purpose of sports.

    I am surprised no lawyer has raised this aspect of team sports at the regulatory level . If it is not right for individual sports why is it all right for team sports. Have one less than 70 Kg level, another above 70 kg level and you will give Asian teams a fighting chance in this sport.

    There is tremendous interest for hockey in Asian subcontinent, but this interest is dying out slowly with each successive defeat. Give Asian hockey a chance, give it a level playing field.
     
  7. otss

    otss FHF Top Player

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    Hmm - Thinking Jugral Singh, Sandeep Singh, Salman Akbar just to name three off the top of my head - think your plan needs a little more thought - there are big and small players in all countries. Asian hockey has more serious issues to sort itself ut than this !
     
  8. don

    don FHF Newbie

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    I am not talking about individuals, a person can be big or small. I am talking about the average weight and size. If you don't believe me, Google it to find the average weight and size of South Asians, there also comments of the Indian coach Nobbs regarding the weight disparity, search that too.

    Teams from the same country or even the same continent usually average out in weight. So the Liverpool football team on average would weigh the same as Manchester United because almost all players are from the same country or the same continent. The problem of weight disparity comes up only in international matches, featuring players from different ethnic groups.
     
  9. otss

    otss FHF Top Player

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    I'm afraid you are talking individuals, there are 16 of them that make up a hockey squad (or 18 depending the comp), Tell me what the average weight/size of all the teams at the Olympics was then please, better still show me a link that will provide that information - so we can see what you are talking about because from purely looking I see little difference between nations, and from youir other thread name me one Indian player that weighs less than 68kg . Plus the Koreans, are they Aisan, they compete pretty well ??

    As I said before there are far bigger problems facing Indian hockey than weight and size
     
  10. don

    don FHF Newbie

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  11. otss

    otss FHF Top Player

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    Sorry unless I'm missing something I don't see the information, the second two links don't appear to work and the first one doesn't tell me the average weights of all the hockey teams at the Olympics.
     
  12. don

    don FHF Newbie

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    In the first link there is a small map shown of the world and below that icons of the various sports in the Olympics. Click that and then click the selected country.

    I will paste the other two articles for you-

    1st Article-
    Indian hockey players underweight, says physio David John
    TNN Oct 11, 2011, 02.16AM IST
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    BANGALORE: Indians are underweight and will take a while before they add muscle and a few kilos to their slender selves, says exercise physiologist David John.

    The Australian, who has been with the Indian hockey team for three months now, said the average weight of the Indian hockey team was 63 kg an wanted the players to add bulk as it would help in improving their fitness.[​IMG]

    "The fitness levels are significantly better than when we went to China. It has been two hard weeks of preparation here. But the players are still underweight," John said.

    "Food was a problem in China and many of them ate very little. To make things worse we had limited food supplements and as a result they lost weight. That was quite risky as players like Gurvinder Chandy and Yuvraj Walmiki couldn't afford to lose more. But the players managed to regain what they lost in the past two weeks. In Australia, the players will use protein supplements three times a day to increase their weight."
    John said he had no previous knowledge of the problem but realized he had his task cut out.

    "Cricketers at MRF, where I have worked, were made to do weight training from a relatively younger age than the hockey players. Obviously, they have more muscle and weight than hockey players. Also, we have seven vegetarians in the team, including Sardar, Sarvanjit, Rajpal, Ravipal, Manpreet and Chandy. It is difficult for them to gain weight with the amount of physical exertion they go through," he said.
    These players had iron infusions on Saturday to battle low levels of the mineral and to increase their endurance fitness. They have also been prescribed protein supplements (soya beans and whey) much more than the non-vegetarian teammates.

    John admitted he couldn't do much to help the vegetarians at the camp. "We can only rely on the supplements. Even for the non-vegetarians, I advocate menu changes during tournaments. Players are put on specific diet 24 hours before each game as we did in China. Coffee is another way as caffeine increases mobilization of fat which is your best fuel. It helps in playing longer and harder without fatigue. Most professional teams in Australia use some form of caffeine."


    2nd Article-
    Weight, and watch!
    Indian hockey team losing kilos, building muscle mass. It’s to improve their fitness, says physio
    Avinash Rajput

    Posted On Thursday, November 17, 2011 at 02:50:42 AM

    The Indian hockey team is losing it. In fact, in the last three months, they have lost it big. No. It’s not the matches or even their mind. Thanks to Australian exercise physiologist David John, the team has lost substantial amount of body weight.

    Interestingly, it was David who had earlier stated that Indians were underweight and that it will take a while before they add muscle and a few kilos of muscle mass. “When I said our players were underweight I meant in terms of muscle mass. The average weight of the Australian team is 85kgs, while the New Zealand team is 90 as compared to India’s 67kgs. We have a lot to catch up, but for now what I can do is make them fit just in terms of hockey,” the physio disclosed.

    It started when David’s calorie meter showed 160 percent carbohydrate in skipper Bharat Chettri’s body. “The carb level was high in all the players and that set off the fitness alarm. I planned a diet for every player depending on their body type and increased their protein intake reducing the carbs to a minimum.

    Chettri lost three kgs in a month and now he is more active and focused. Raghunath was a little overweight but he lost 6kgs in three weeks and now shows better reflexes and has become quicker than before,” David said.

    The Australian has been examining every player’s muscle mass after making major changes in their diet. Some blame it on the Chinese food when the team visited China for the Asian Champions Trophy (August 26- September 14) while others believe it was because of the diet change that David introduced.

    Indian hockey team has more than seven players who are pure vegetarians and the diet affects their performance. “I have recommended proteins to all the players, especially the vegetarians. The team also has coffee which provides caffeine that boosts energy level. It will take a lot of time to match the European body type. For now we will focus on the Olympic qualifiers and then we will have some more time to prepare if the team qualifies,” he added.

     
  13. jaduong

    jaduong FHF Legend

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    so, Don, what exactly is it you want? different weight classes for teams with different average heights and weights.
    well, it will be fun for India to play by themselves...then we shall exclaim in surprised delight at the increases in interest in the sub-continent...

    the article says that David John has changed their diets from carb loaded fayre to protein dominant meals. what i think is that, because their nutrition was so terrible (as full time athletes) the physio left it too late - though not his fault i suppose - to prepare them properly for an event that was only a few months away. in a year, given proper nutrition and physical conditioning, their weights will increase a fair bit. obviously, the trends in athletic sports are to identify taller athletes younger and condition them to perfection, and there are some genetic factors that will determine who the *best* of these athletes are, but that's hardly a reason to create divisions or handicaps.

    International sport is played among nations to determine who the best nations are in terms of preparation and performance. just because the India hockey team is a couple of decades late in learning about proper nutrition is not the fault of the Aussies, Germans and others...it is their own.


    whilst there are people who will frown at things like vitamin and iron injections (a lot of pro cyclists have to take them during grand tours because of the effect of the tour on their bodies), i think there is nothing at all wrong with them when supervised by ethical medical staff. just because one team has vegetarians who are struggling to be in the best condition they can be because of religious or cultural beliefs is NOT a reason to hold others with different beliefs/norms back.

    the Indian one day cricket team recently won the world cup, and they've had some great physical conditioning and changes of diet regimes for the last few years, and i would wager that there is no real disparity between their weights and other cricket teams' weights. especially if you have Ramesh Powar (linked picture of said Indian 'athlete') in the team bowling his spin. yes, the Ramesh Powar bit was a joke. the rest of the team are in fabulous shape, with one or two very notable exceptions.

    the sad fact of the matter is that India have not maximised their hockeying potential in recent times, especially when compared to other nations. perhaps remedy that, first, and then worry about other things. a level playing field? i'm not sure that India are not their own worst enemies at creating this when it comes to field hockey.
     
  14. don

    don FHF Newbie

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    Why are you comparing hockey with cricket. Cricket in not a contact sport, do you think players like David Boon or Duleep Mendis with big overhanging bellys would stand a chance in highly physical contact sport. Or for that matter even Tendulakar would fail big time, if he had to run shoulder to shoulder, or pushed or shoved or tackled from behind by someone who weighed 20kg or more.

    Cricketers never come in contact with one another. A fast bowler may be 7 feet tall and weigh 300 pounds but if he pitches short to the diminutive Tendulkar he is going to be hit for a six.
     
  15. jaduong

    jaduong FHF Legend

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    i was comparing their nutrition. Indian hockey is miles behind their cricketing counterparts. but nice of you to miss the point.
    the point, in a nutshell, was this: the cricket team, which pays attention to nutrition and conditioning because they have been receptive to ideas, have prospered. it wasn't that difficult really.

    i would expect the names of cricketers you have mentioned to fall into the category i created, called 'notable exceptions'.


    shoving and tackling from behind..last i knew those were fouls in field hockey (the tackling from behind bit only a foul under certain conditions of course..), but hey, let's not let facts get in the way of our cute little discussion, shall we?
     

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