Passing back to GK

Discussion in 'Goalie Zone' started by Mav, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    Fruitless? As in the game that @biggoaly linked where Andy set up a goal and has a bunch of other assists in games?

    I'm not advocating that 'Tim' playing for his school's 2nd XI or 'Bob' from Division 10 in the Surrey Open Hockey League should be using a pseduo goal kick, but that national league and international goalies may be able to - because they already have amazing motor skills and hand-eye co-ordination to work from - the only two examples we have to work from are Isaacs (former NL goalie) and Mason (former GB player).

    Manuel Neuer plays as an extra defender effectively (when he's not injured!), but no-one really truly replicates his style at the same level because they don't have the physical or mental attributes (like reading the game to the highest level) to pull it off. As is with this.

    Handball goalies can play an important part in starting attacks at the top level, football goalies set up goals and sometimes score, as do ice hockey goalies when they puckhandle. Why is it any different? It's another 'tool in the toolbox' even if unorthodox. Last line of defence and first line of attack and all that.

    As for clearing via punt - yes, they're two different techniques - but punting away is seen as more viable because it is being used more. Same as getting the leg up to block with pad around the knee/thigh area rather than dropped gloves.

    I wouldn't say it's desperate, as when done by national league goalies - it's because it's quicker and 'kills two birds with one stone' without having to control the ball down to touch first and then clear. Haven't seen lofting a ball away via glove.
     
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  2. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Generally fruitless inasmuch as the majority of times it happens, it achieves little.

    There is nothing to say that if you can do it properly, you shouldn't do it.

    The difficulties for a GK over a defender giving an aerial are:

    1. It takes MUCH longer to prepare the ball (get it into the air, and then in a position to kick) for such a kick and it gives an attacker a chance to steal the ball. A defender just needs the ball on the ground.
    2. Accuracy with a large foam pad is significantly harder to achieve than with a stick.

    As a result, those who do this successfully are significantly fewer and farther between than those who a)do it unsuccessfully or b) don't bother.
    Thus it is generally fruitless. I never said completely, i said generally. So citing a very small number of instances where it has been a success does not argue against my point. It compliments it.

    Personally I think it can be useful and I have used it successfully, however even as a proponent of it as an option, I am happy to say that the majority of attempts come to nothing or worse.
    How many videos don't exist of the above mentioned keepers trying this aerial and it going wrong? Very few. The only videos available are of successful attempts. Thus we have confirmation bias.
     
  3. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    Of course I know what the difficulties are for a goalkeeper doing it, even a defender is going to find general success chucking an aerial if their accuracy isn't pinpoint.

    Because I don't video the games I go to, so I don't have any other examples? I haven't seen failed attempts in person by Mason or Isaacs.

    There are a small number of cases when it's been successfully, because there are few cases when it has been attempted - properly!

    Confirmation bias would be in these two cases because I believe they are capable of doing it - I don't think there's many goalkeepers around who can. Getting metric data would require equipment I don't have and would have to be in-game rather than at training...
     
  4. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    Probably because it's against the rules.

    Pesky buggers ruining all the fun like that.
     
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  5. Xocnai

    Xocnai FHF Top Player

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    Like you I came in to hockey from football and am comfortable with the ball at my feet, but I'm also aware that accuracy on a hockey ball with kickers is much more difficult than with football boots and a football.

    Generally, I stick to convention and don't look for a back pass, and let the ball run over the backline for a 16 hit. However, I am always aware of the game and where actually, my intervention may make a difference.

    An example would be a game in which we were at 1-1 with two minutes to go, with a player advantage following a card for the opposition. The oppo hit long from their defensive third to relieve som pressure, expecting the ball to run out for a 16 which would allow them to reset a little further up the pitch. I was able to intercept and control this and kick the ball back out to my deepest defender (who was around the halfway line) - from here, we recycled quickly and scored the winner because the oppo hadn't managed to reset their shape.

    Obviously this is one small example, but your ability to kick out from the back can be employed now and then but I'd be wary of making it a regular play, as oppo attackers will quickly twig and leave someone high to try and capitalise on this.
     
  6. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Annoyingly the wording of the rules is really open to interpretation:

    "10.3c: [G]oalkeepers wearing full protective equipment and players with goalkeeping privileges are permitted to use arms, hands and any other part of their body to push the ball away. The action in rule c above is permitted only as part of a goal saving action or to move the ball away from the possibility of a goal scoring action by opponents. It does not permit a goalkeeper or player with goalkeeping privileges to propel the 28 ball forcefully with arms, hands or body so that it travels a long distance."
    (my formatting changes)

    This means that one umpire may adjudge clearing the ball out of the D with your hand protector to be a long distance and another may adjudge out of the 23, and so on... it's frustrating because it leaves a GK open to being pulled up for things that are otherwise reasonable and the penalty will be a penalty corner which is a high price to pay for skillful and safe play.
    In the context of an aerial from a stick or kicked aerial, clearing the 23 is not a long distance, but in the context of playing the ball from hand to ground and clearing with the feet, it is a very long distance.

    I am certain that many of us will have pre-defined ideas of what "long distance" OBVIOUSLY means and that the wording is fine because their personal interpretation will clearly be adopted by any sensible person. Such is life.

    It is the case that such use of a hand-protector is not allowed, but are we getting to a position where that is an obsolete restriction and that removing it would have no deleterious effect on the game? Why can a keeper not play the ball (Safely) over a long distance with their hand pads. They can do so with their stick, feet etc.
     
  7. Mick Mason

    Mick Mason FHF Top Player

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    One possibility could be that GK have a tendency to look for advantage in the rules when they can (which is a reasonable thing) and it would be no time at all before we saw ice hockey gloves (or some variant of) being used and GKs throwing balls up field.
     
  8. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    That is a fair point.

    What would be wrong with that?

    If it is (as could be quite reasonable) deemed unacceptable then the rules governing the appearance and makeup of the hand protectors could easily prevent that. (I wonder that in their current woolly wsy they already give recourse to prevent that?)
     
  9. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    I don't see catchers catching on in hockey... Ice hockey goalies flip/toss the puck, they don't throw it down the "pitch" a la football/soccer.

    As for 'lofty' raised shots, the lhp won't be pushing shots back in the air, they'll be looking to play them to a 'safe area' like side of the pitch or over the bar.

    Like @Xocnai and the OP suggested, it has its uses, but rarely applied or needs to be. If you just playing the ball back in, it could be as a pointless as a rebound going straight back to the shooter for a scoring chance.
     
  10. Mick Mason

    Mick Mason FHF Top Player

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    Who suggested they do? We are not comparing ice hockey to field hockey, we are imagining what might happen with a rule change. If GKs are allowed to throw a ball I see them making use of such a change in the rule often.
     
  11. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    Where did throwing come into it?
     
  12. asahartz

    asahartz FHF All Time Great

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    Quite the opposite, they actually catch the puck, at which point the whistle is blown and there is a face-off. Little or no advantage.

    I don't see any way that one could be built into foam, and who wants to go back to leather gloves?
     
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  13. kenbeckett

    kenbeckett FHF Newbie

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    In the right situation, it's a good play. As a keeper I love the chance, if only to keep game focus.
    How many of you have seen the "punt clearance, where the keeper lifts the Ball & punts it 30-40 yds. Safely mind you to a forward?? Would love feedback on this!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. peterwins

    peterwins FHF Legend

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    At the masters World Cup in Canberra in 2016 saw a former england gk punt it accurately 70 yards. Very impressive.
     
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  15. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    What else are they going to do? Drop the ball and punt it?

    Baseball catchers don't throw from their catching hand, they switch hands and use their throwing hand.

    Well, as I play ice hockey too, the only time the whistle should be called is when the goalie catches and holds the puck. Finnish and other European goalies often give the puck back to a player to restart an attack. 3 seconds is like the 6 second rule in football.

    http://www.usahockeyrulebook.com/page/show/1084666-rule-618-handling-puck-with-hands

    http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26478

    "67.3 Minor Penalty – Goalkeeper - A goalkeeper who holds the puck with his hands for longer than three seconds shall be given a minor penalty unless he is actually being checked by an opponent. The object of this entire rule is to keep the puck in play continuously and any action taken by the goalkeeper which causes an unnecessary stoppage must be penalized without warning."

    It's pointless having a catching web or glove in hockey. Covering the ball leads to being penalised and if you're at national league, would you really have the time to catch and then drop it against a player close to you looking for rebounds? Or take the risk of holding onto it instead of deflecting it away?
     
  16. GregDowse

    GregDowse FHF Newbie

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    As far as I am aware there is no rule about pass back, but it's pretty risky going back to the keeper.

    In my youth I played in goal and the first season I had a glove. Could get away with picking it up and rolling it to players, but this was about 11 years ago. Doesn't really give you much of an advantage though.
     
  17. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Without wishing to sound rude, others have already stated definitively, and correctly, that there is no rule preventing a pass back to the GK...
     
  18. Simon_GK_Mason

    Simon_GK_Mason FHF Legend

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    First time I tried it in a game, european club champs roughly 1998, sliced into crowd, nearly killed a dutch supporter - not my finest hour.
     
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  19. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    I stand corrected! Clearly a difficult skill to pull off, hence rarely used. The stats nerd in me is still interested in the length of pass and placement on pitch...

    The original question from @Mav was whether it was within the rules/spirit of the game if he could receive a pass back from a defender as a passing option akin to short passes to recycle possession which is the norm with distributional goalkeepers at the moment in football (Ederson, Ter Stegen); with Mav asking if this was possible, coming across from a background in football goalkeeping, rather than goalie ping pong...

     

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