PS Question

Discussion in 'Umpiring Corner' started by Learner, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:08 PM.

  1. Learner

    Learner FHF Newbie

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    Just finished watching the game between Korea vs Malaysia in WLSF London.

    I have a question.. I had a think but it's bothering me if I don't ask.

    In the last minute, Korea got a PC. The drag flicker flicks directly towards goal and hit the postman on the line and the umpire awarded a PS which seems to be fine. After video referral, it seems the ball has not left the circle during PC and therefore the PS is canceled. Which is OK.

    The decision after the referral was to award a Free hit to defense. Should it be another PC? I.e. Downgrade decision of PS as the ball has not left the circle?

    I always had a thought, during a PC, if the ball has not left the circle and any PS decision will be downgraded to PC. Can someone please clear this up?
     
  2. george

    george FHF Starter

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    My understanding is a failed attack team referral always results in a FHD.
     
  3. Diligent

    Diligent FHF Staff
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    @george is right: if the review overturns a goal, PC, PS, etc to the attack, then the restart is a FHD.
    Also there is no chance of a goal, so the flick might be regarded as dangerous. Also FHD.
     
  4. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF Super Star

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    They should restart with FHD. The umpires got one wrong yesterday and restarted with an LC after failed review.
     
  5. Simon_GK_Mason

    Simon_GK_Mason FHF Star Player

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    All above is correct except the last comment - I said the same on commentary but was told that if the answer to the review is 'no advice possible' then the original decision continues - in the instance in question a LC, but in all other instances if then offensive appeal fails then FHD
     
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  6. Learner

    Learner FHF Newbie

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    Thanks for the replies. I think I quite get it now. So If I am correct, if the ball has not left the circle during a PC

    a) a goal is scored = FHD
    b) Ball hit the postman on line (shin, face, upper body etc) = FHD

    Is this correct? I think if it hit the shin pad of a defender on the line, it should be another PC because it is not dangerous and the ball has not left the circle?
     
  7. Stephen65

    Stephen65 FHF Legend

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    The rules don't say you can't shoot until the ball has left the circle, rather just that you can't score, so a defender being hit by a shot taken without the ball leaving the circle can never be a PS because the attackers couldn't have scored.
     
  8. Learner

    Learner FHF Newbie

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    Noted on rule but what would be the decision? If the ball haven't left the circle;

    a) and hit the defender's shinpad on the line = PC / PS?
    b) hit the defender on the line at his upper body (above knee) = FHD because it is dangerous? If it is dangerous, why? the defender is already more than 5M..
     
  9. Fishman

    Fishman FHF Newbie

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    For me as the ball hasnt left the D and cannot score:
    a) depends where the ball ends up, if it bounces off player and off the backline inside or outside the goal then long corner. If defender/keeper can play the ball then PC.
    b) FHD for danger. You wouldn't allow players to shell the ball at others and hit them high in open play, why allow it in D when goal cannot be scored.
     
    #9 Fishman, Jun 20, 2017 at 6:46 AM
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017 at 7:13 AM
  10. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    a) is a PC, offence inside the circle which is not deliberate and does not prevent a probable goal being scored.
    b) is a FHD, dangerous raised ball, same as if they'd tried to overhead from a free hit or something, and flicked it hard into an opponent ten metres away.
     
  11. Learner

    Learner FHF Newbie

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    Thanks for replying. so for (b) If the ball stopped outside the circle during PC, drag flick into postman body on the line no dangerous? Danger only if the ball stopped inside the circle? I am still trying to get hold of the interpretation of rules here :(

    So if the ball has not left the circle, the drag flick towards goal (Shot on goal) is a infringement?. As such free hit to the the defenders is a correct decision? is this correct @redumpire ?
     
    #11 Learner, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:12 AM
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017 at 9:24 AM
  12. Fishman

    Fishman FHF Newbie

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    My thought above was with the much debated is a foot in the D is not a PC if no advantage gained. So ball that hits player safely and goes in or off pitch from a PC where ball has not left D should be a Long corner as no advantage gained
     
  13. johnreiss

    johnreiss FHF Top Player

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    Clarification please. Why would the attack appeal a PS decision? Surely only the defence would appeal a PS. I assume that the reasons for the appeal was the fact that the ball never left the circle (not illegal but a goal/PS cannot be awarded).

    Assuming the defence's foul would be deemed accidental, the appeal would be valid and the only way to restart is with a fh to the defence.
     
  14. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    (my emphasis)
    So in normal play if a postman gets hit on the body and it prevented the ball going into the goal a PC is awarded. In this case, because the PS was appealed this does not apply and a FHD is awarded as a result of the successful appeal by the defence.

    This feels a bit odd to me as the fair result would be to apply the rules—which in this case would lead to a PC—but it is what the regulations with respect to video referrals say.
     
  15. Learner

    Learner FHF Newbie

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    @Folmer I agree with you and to summ this up, during a PC, if the ball has not left the circle;

    a) A shot at goal, play continues.
    b) If a goal is scored -> FHD
    c) If the ball hits the post man on the line above knee level - FHD as it is dangerous.
    d) If the ball hits the post man on the line below knee level - Retake PC

    I guess this is the correct interpretation of the rules. I guess I understand it now if these are correct?
     
  16. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    Sounds like a perfectly good summary, @Learner.
     
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  17. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF Super Star

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    A) - correct
    B) - potentially though it could be a LC if the ball was played off a defender last
    C) & D) - no, the rules only say that is an issue inside 5m -

    9.9 says "Players must not intentionally raise the ball from a hit except for a shot at goal. ..... Players are permitted to raise the ball with a flick or scoop provided it is not dangerous. A flick or scoop towards an opponent within 5 metres is considered dangerous""

    13.3 L says "for second and subsequent hits at the goal and for flicks, deflections and scoops, it is permitted to raise the ball to any height but this must not be dangerous.

    A defender who is clearly running into the shot or into the taker without attempting to play the ball with their stick must be penalised for dangerous play.

    Otherwise, if a defender is within five metres of the first shot at goal during the taking of a penalty corner and is struck by the ball below the knee, another penalty corner must be awarded or is struck on or above the knee in a normal stance, the shot is judged to be dangerous and a free hit must be awarded to the defending team."
    "

    The defender on the line is a contentious issue because the rules say one thing:

    9.8 Players must not play the ball dangerously or in a way which leads to dangerous play.

    A ball is also considered dangerous when it causes legitimate evasive action by players.

    The penalty is awarded where the action causing the danger took place


    The approach taken by umpires from the top down (and the way you would be coached if you ever take appointments as an umpire) is the opposite. A player struck on the line who couldn't evade a shot (e.g. it was flicked hard at them at body height) should be given a FH as per the rules. In the real world a PS is given for stopping a goal. This is further complicated by the statements from umpires like "shot on target cannot be dangerous" or "only consider danger if shot was off target "
     
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  18. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    If the ball did not leave the circle and enters the goal, it will be either a long corner or 15MH. There is never a reason for FHD unless an attacker makes an offence.
     
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  19. Learner

    Learner FHF Newbie

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    @Gingerbread for c) & d) - this situation is when the ball has not traveled outside the circle during a PC. i.e. the ball has not left the circle. Therefore it would be fair i think;

    c) If the ball hits the post man on the line above knee level - FHD as it is dangerous. (considering the attacker has not stopped the ball outside the circle)

    d) If the ball hits the post man on the line below knee level - Retake PC
     
  20. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF Super Star

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    It's not a matter of "fair", it's a matter of what the rules say.

    The rules do not support the black and white decision you have mentioned, the fact the ball has not left the circle doesn't exclude any rules beyond the fact you can't score and that you can't give a PS under 12.4 a. You could still award a PS for a deliberate foul under 12.4b, you could play on from d), you might award a PC for c) e.g. if the defender deliberately moves into the line of the shot, it's an issue of context and situation
     
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