Taking reversed free hits quickly

Discussion in 'Game Management & Communication' started by silky, Jun 2, 2008.

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    silky

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    So the situation was this:

    a. you award a free hit to team A, however a coach/player on the bench makes a comment to you the umpire (Presuming this is allowed?!). You then reverse the free hit because of the remark made so it is now in team B's favour.

    b. You don't stop the game to explain the situation to team A and intead allow team B to take the free hit quickly and play continues.

    So, are you allowed to revere a decision after a comment from the bench? And would after reversing a decision would you let the opposing team take a quick free hit?

    Cheers,

    silky
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    Wilster

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    If you feel the comment is deemed significant enough to reverse the decision you are allowed to award the hit the other way and they can take it as quick as they like unless you have specifically told the team awarded the reversed free-hit to wait as you are talking to the player/coach who made the comment. But to keep the flow of the game going, should just reverse the decision and let them get on with it, if a card is necessary then you can't do anything about holding the free-hit up!
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    Su*x

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    yes and yes (IMO!)
    I am pretty sure you can reverse the free hit due to comments off the bench, and I don't think its a problem to give a quick free hit so long as you made your actions obvious to both teams!
    So long as you made it obvious you had reversed the decision there is no problem in how much time there was in it!
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    silky

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    As with a lot of questions on here this stems from a real life incident. But taking into account Wilster's point it being significant I would have to say if that is true then we were very hard done by and in relation to Su*x point in that as long as the umpire made clear his actions to both sides, well... :no:

    Personally, not knowing the legislation on this I felt very hard done by! Firstly, I accept and agree that an umpire should be able to reverse a decision after "input" from the bench, if it is strong enough. But, I disagree that a free hit should then be taken quickly without an explanation to the playing team as to why a free hit which was in their favour has suddenly been reversed!

    silky
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    Wilster

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    ahh silky but then you can argue that if the umpire had given clear warning to both teams players and coaches that anymore comments would not be tolerated then the decision is very fair as they already know the umpire is going to take a tough stance on it
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    keely FHF Legend

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    Silky, the pertinent rule is 12.5:

    So the first answer is yes.

    As to whether to allow the now benefiting team to take a quick free hit, generally speaking I would allow this to happen unless this would provide a disproportionate advantage. For example, if I've reversed a free hit that was previously awarded to the defending team right outside their circle, I would very likely hold that attacking team up if I felt that they could have an undefended scoring opportunity from a quick hit.

    That being said, in my experience most times I've reversed a call it's because the attackers have been appealing for the decision. If you're not using your cards, you're often just trying to get a quick stop to the behaviour without any conversation, as you should have had the conversation and verbal warnings prior to the reversal. Allowing the defenders to take that reversed hit quickly gets the message across very effectively that it's time to "get on with it."

    However, there are no hard and fast rules. There is a delicate balance to be struck here and it takes some experience (and probably a few mistakes) to find the "right" way to handle a reversal in most situations.
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    justin-old FHF Legend

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    It's worth adding, I think, that one occasion when you must allow time for both teams to 'adjust' is when you reverse a decision because you decide you got the first one wrong :eek:
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    keely FHF Legend

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    Absolutely right, justin!
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    silky

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    So, would you say reversing a decision (rightly or wrongly) and then allowing the opposing team to take it quickly when the team was clearly preparing for a hit into the D? The team who had the decision reversed were left for dead as they were in the D and the opposing team was left to walk up the pitch with a 4 on 1.

    Personally, I didn't like the decision one bit. But then again, I did lose a national quarter final over it :growl:

    But hey, you can't change what has happened.

    silky
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    keely FHF Legend

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    You haven't told us why the decision was reversed. Was it due to the umpire's mistake, i.e. the called the free hit one way and then realized they'd just confused the direction, or was it reversed because of misconduct by your team after the initial foul was awarded? We've established that has everything to do with how you handle the situation.

    Now, if it was the former, then the umpire definitely could have managed it better but at the same time, 76m is a long way to walk and still successfully execute a 4-on-1.

    If it was the latter situation and the decision was reversed for dissent, I'm going out on a limb here to guess that your teammates may still have been "communicating" with the umpire as the 4-on-1 situation developed and chose to register their displeasure by perhaps not trying to get back into the play.

    In either case, I'm thinking that in a national quarter-final game that last 70 min., an awful lot of things can happen to cause a team to lose a game.
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    Paul Watts FHF Legend

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    Well said Keely
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    silky

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    The free hit was originally given for a pretty horrific stick tackle inside the opposing 25. It was reversed as our coach asked the umpire if really thought that wasn't a short corner (player was driving into the D with no one in the way and the opposing player breaks down play by hacking his stick). And our coach literally used those words, albeit sarcastically.

    Comments welcome.

    EDIT: It lost us the game as it was in the last 5 minutes and proved to be the game winning goal. But I agree, you could have picked out any number of the umpires decisions that game (4 yellows!)
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    keely FHF Legend

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    All of my above comments stand, but there's nothing much we can do on the forum when your real purpose in asking your question was to validate your insistence on blaming the umpire for your loss.
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    johncoxon FHF Legend

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    Play to the whistle- get on with it and if you lose - accept it gracefully. Rules are there to be honoured and if you fail- accept it and move on. Umpires work incredibly hard to be impartial and it is a lesson you might learn from !
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    silky

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    A bit vindictive :p

    I was merely explaining the situation liked you asked. At least I now know that atleast the umpire was right in that he was able to reverse the decision and it then just comes down to his judgement of the situation. I guess we will never know if he would have liked to have done anything different.
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    Hockeyjon

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    For what its worth, I was lambasted by an English FIH umpire coach a number of years ago for upgrading a foul FH to the attack inside the 23 to PC, when a defender complained about the decision I gave against him.
    When I came off ther pitch I was told in no uncertain terms that dissent should be dealt with through the individual or the skipper. DO NOT give a team a potential goal scoring attempt unless they earn it. I know its not exactly the same as Silky's scenario, but as a development in my game I got into the habit of dealing with the individual when I have a problem with dissent, (if I feel I have to deal with it), regadless of where it is on the pitch. The scenario silky describes I would've dealt with the coach instead of reversing the foul. When I do reverse a foul its usually for the 2nd time they have taken FH's from completely the wrong place to gain an obvious advantage. I always warn them I will reverse it next time they do it, so the onus is on the offending team not to do so.
    This post is all over the place too long a day at work...time for bed
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    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Didn't a highly respected umpire coach also say that you should award the (legal) penalty the offending team would least like to receive? (or words to that effect).

    Dissent is, IMO, a highly corrosive activity which has the potential to 'damage' a game more than 'over-robust' (ie rough) play. It should be dealt-with promptly and firmly.
    My tolerance level of it is low :)

    Anyway, I don't believe in the concept of 'earning' FHs...they are awarded by the umpires to teams who are on the receiving-end of an offence against the rules.
    'Earning' suggests to me the concept of 'forced fouls' :(
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    keely FHF Legend

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    And I would imagine that if it was an English FIH UM, it was either an international match or something close. I see that UM's point, as upgrading a FHA outside the circle to a PC is a big decision when the execution rates are so high. There are likely other tools you can use prior to this, including verbal warnings to the individual and the captain, but where the dissenting behaviour is used as a form of time-wasting or has that effect, if you would not hesitate to award the corner when the defender taps the ball away just outside the circle, the dissent should be dealt with in the same fashion.

    In any event, that kind of scenario is very distinguishable from the situation we're discussing here, where a free hit was reversed and the (less potent) scoring opportunity was taken away and I'm sure you were in fact pointing out this difference.
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    justin-old FHF Legend

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    I agree that one should be aware of the 'power' of an upgrade to PC, especially at levels where conversion rates are high.... but so should the players :yes:

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