Training v playing matches views please.

Discussion in 'Goalie Zone' started by Annw, Jan 29, 2018.

  1. Annw

    Annw FHF Newbie

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    Hello everyone,

    Maybe a silly question but I would like to get a feel if there is a majority view on whether a GK training to highest junior performance level is sufficient for them just to train and not to play many games?

    Is a GK training two or three times a week sufficient versus playing a match?

    I am thinking the match play scenario, where a GK is under pressure to make saves is more intense and requires additional/different skills than in training???

    Views please ?
     
  2. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    Training itself isn’t enough. A goalie should be reading the match and managing their defenders. You need match play to develop this. I see a lot of good young keepers who haven’t the match skills to rise above the lower leagues in matches.
     
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  3. Annw

    Annw FHF Newbie

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    Thank you - do coaches know this without any doubt? As a general rule?
     
  4. sanabas

    sanabas FHF All Time Great

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    I'd assume so.


    It's quite hard to get better at reading the play, decision making, controlling defenders, without actually doing it in a game. Also things like confidence to execute skills, seeing how you deal with things under pressure, etc. Even just the ability to stay focused, to stay in the right mental space to perform well when you might have 10 minutes or more at a time with the ball not coming near your circle.

    Training lets you focus on acquiring & refining skills, lets you repeat stuff, have more controlled situations, etc. But you've still got to get experience doing those things in games.
     
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  5. AndyGaut

    AndyGaut FHF All Time Great

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    I would say so. We train so we can be better in games otherwise there would be little point in training.

    You can only coach controlled scenarios in training when this happens in a match things can play out in so many different ways. A coach can also work on certain aspects they pick up on watching the keeper during a match
     
  6. Folmer

    Folmer FHF All Time Great

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    Depends on the coach. In my experience the more senior, higher level coaches do. Parents/willing volunteers usually do not (with an occasional exception).

    Different sessions train different skills.
    - GK specific training for specialist skills,
    - team training for game situations and team interaction, and
    - matches to learn to perform under pressure and read game play.
    All three are required for good GK development. Skip one and the GK will never reach full potential.
     
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  7. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    Are we talking Junior Performance Centres (like JRPC) or just general club/school training?

    If school/club, then they definitely need game time to learn how to read the game and make decisions in an environment that is less predictable or difficult to simulate. If performance centre, then not as important if they are developing.

    I would echo said statements, but if they are at a junior performance centre, then game time is decided by the coach. If they are deemed a weaker goalie and there is a clear ‘starter’ then unfortunately they realistically speaking have little chance of getting game time unless the coach changes their mind or due to injury.


    The performance centres I coach at will have reserve goalkeepers who won’t play but are involved in training sessions throughout the course of the season, so for them, it’s a good chance to take on board new technique, work hard, and try to show what they can do.


    On the flip side, they are getting access to better coaching and a deeper understanding of the tactical elements of the game which aids them reading the game, which they can take away and employ back in their school/club games.


    So long, as they’re getting plenty of game time at their respective club, it’s not too detrimental for them to not be starting for their performance centre team.
     
  8. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    Never was a fan of that logic at least in my experience of taking a keeper to fixtures just for them to sit on the sideline all weekend.

    There is no reason not to rolling sub keepers, it’s just laziness from the coaches.

    It’s not about winning, it’s about training.


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  9. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    GKs are a little different though, because apart from the game management techniques and focus, games are not brilliant places to learn the skills required as you generally have so little to do overall that you will learn the physical skills better at training. But without the match experience of managing a defence and whatnot, these skills are more or less useless.

    You could argue that a field player could play games and get enough ball time to learn new stuff, but with keepers it is rarely the case.
     
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  10. Mick Mason

    Mick Mason FHF Top Player

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    GKs need game time. Games are where their decision making skills are honed, where they get to put into play the skills they are working on at training.
     
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  11. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    I’m just there to assess the goalies, not choose the squads.


    I get your point, but it’s relative to age groups and the aim of the development tournament/squad. For Futures and Regional, coaches would argue it’s about winning and wanting to put their best players out there. If you had a goalie who wants to showcase their talent for international selection, would you drop them to play a less able goalie who won’t gain much?


    Switching goalies during games affects the team’s confidence (can they trust their ‘keeper?) and approach (goalie may want team to defend differently/is more aggressive and therefore needs defenders to help them recover after they’ve charged out to the top of their D). But rotating games makes more sense, which all depends on number of games and importance again.


    James Bailey couldn’t cope being bumped up an age group at the 2009 U21’s World Cup (i.e. 9-0 against India, including trouble reading drag flicks at PC’s) and yet Scanlon got dropped in spite of keeping the goal tally to a minimum and kept his team in it, but they wanted to ‘use the opportunity to aid Bailey’s development’. Losing by great amounts can also crush a goalie’s confidence; confidence being essential to goalkeeping form and success.


    So is it stupid to bring a reserve goalkeeper to stay in the Olympic village, just in case there is ever an injury, like Tobias Walter did for the Germans? If there ever is an injury, what then? I don’t get hockey where goalies are never expected to bench in the rare case of injury; at least it keeps them involved as well as warm-ups and at least makes them feel integrated into the squad.
     
  12. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    Don’t see a problem subbing keepers at half time provided the players know this can/may happen. The argument about different styles of keeper says more about inadequate coaching than about a problem subbing. It just shows the team hasn’t practiced adequately with all their keepers.
    In my limited experience keepers that train well don’t always play as well as the other keeper. And sitting on the side line all weekend can seriously impact a young layer’s confidence.
    With juniors we see,most, coaches at all levels thinking it’s about the result. It shouldn’t be. It’s about developing every player whatever their standard.
    If I’m coaching matches every player gets equal pitch time. They’ve all paid their share and deserve equal treatment.


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  13. Mick Mason

    Mick Mason FHF Top Player

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    That is how I operate, but it isn't about money, it is about owning the results as part of a team. We are teaching young people how to get on in life, not just how to play hockey, and in a team environment you are looking to create a culture where the stronger players assist the weaker players to rise to the level needed to get the team over the line. This approach has lead to a few discussions on the sideline with parents of kids in my regional teams who see their star coming off the pitch and want to know why Jill/Jack is having a break and the answer is always simple, the player is part of a team and the rotations are set for all the team, Jill/Jack is either part of the team or they are not.
     
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  14. Nij

    Nij FHF All Time Great

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    Having one goalkeeper means you're allowed sixteen players in total.
    Having two goalkeepers means you're allowed eighteen players in total.

    It would be stupid to not include the spare goalkeeper in your Olympic team.
     
  15. Krebsy

    Krebsy FHF All Time Great

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    I argued that at 2012, but still never got selected.
     
  16. sanabas

    sanabas FHF All Time Great

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    Olympics don't play by the FIH rules, and they are restricted to 16 players regardless of how many goalies they have. Which is why some (all?) teams only used 1 keeper.
     
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  17. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    Which I believe is nonsensical.

    I just think it's better off for a reserve goalkeeper to be mandatory like ice hockey, soccer etc. etc.. I've seen enough goalkeepers at national league level soldier on after being winded or injured, when bringing on another goalie would be better for their safety and long term health (i.e. what's the point playing on with certain injuries, which makes it worse).

    New Zealand mens were practising for a little (before London I believe) while with a spare outfield player donning pads if anything disastrous ever did happen (based on the concept that Olympic athletes should be capable of that as they'd have an elite skill set - hand-eye co-ordination, reflexes etc.). Football Olympic teams have a mandatory reserve, why can't hockey? http://www.fifa.com/mensolympic/teams/team=1889256/players.html

    Also makes it difficult to cut down to a single goalkeeper and adhjust team playing in front of them, having rotated goalies the whole four year buildup - see Australia and Lovell and Charter, and Holland and Blaak and Van der ven.

    As the JAC I work with is classed as a charity, I can't see how it's about money...

    The original question from @Annw was double barreled: -

    1. can goalkeepers get away with just training? No, they can't, in fact a goalkeeper who doesn't train and only plays can probably do better than the reverse. National league squads use it as a way to break in upcoming goalies to their new environment and build confidence, otherwise you don't want to see a goalkeeper merely training at any age/level. Training just simulates scenarios (if you have goalie specific coaching/integration that is), it doesn't create a pressurised enough environment for reading plays or decision making.
    2. quote unquote for "highest junior performance level"? Define junior representation. Highest level as a junior is technically national squad representation. And plenty of 16 year old goalkeepers debuted in the national league at that age -- Allan Dick, Jimi Lewis etc. etc.

    As @Folmer says, it requires three things working in unison to get the best out of a junior goalie .

    I have seen nag's rotate goalies, but it can be different as you go down levels, and also philosophies filtering down. But at my JAC, we have six goalkeepers at least per age group; one is ranked as the highest to play games, then three are involved into team practises all the time, and the others are reserve goalkeepers that can use the experience to benefit their development . Often times there is a massive gap in ability/experience and this arguably leads .

    I know junior nag's give their goalkeepers game time, but on a game by game switch rather than swapping at half time.

    I don't disagree on that point - I agree that they should get as much time as possible, but if they are lagging behind their peers, should they be playing if they are a detriment to their team (i.e. not comfortable psychologically)?
     
    #17 Grim_D, Feb 1, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  18. Grim_D

    Grim_D FHF Regular Player

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    Which is why being first choice goalkeeper is considered such a responsibility, because I'd say up until recently (at least in my experience), the goalkeeper wasn't expected to be subbed off, but play the full 60/70 minutes.

    I get the point that players should get shared playing time and agree with that, but was meaning to say that realistically, a lot of the time, the goalie will just be involved with team training and GK specific coaching, rather than playing.

    Otherwise you end up with a situation like Buffon for Italy or Brodeur for New Jersey where they will always start and there is a massive lag in development/ability because the goalie deputising for them never gets the chance to play and get real game experience.

    But you could argue that goalkeeping is based on the natural ability to stop shots than a technical textbook i.e. "cookie cutter" versus 'read and react'.

    Fine balancing point unless you truly have the time and resources to back a goalkeeper that needs more 'contact time' being shown how to properly make saves versus one that picks up technical almost instantly.
     
  19. sanabas

    sanabas FHF All Time Great

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    I agree. If athlete numbers are so tight though, and those extra 48 players the village needs to accommodate might be the difference between retaining a spot as an olympic sport or not, then I'm happy to stick with 16. But I think we could take a page out of the NHL's book with how they look at 3rd keepers. Which is to have an emergency keeper available at every game. Might be a local player, might be one of the coaches, etc. So in the very rare case that both keepers get injured, the game can continue. Could work the same way, either teams bring their own, and they're in the stands with the rest of the team officials who don't rate a bench spot, or there's someone local who can put the pads on in the rare occasion a goalie breaks during a game.

    I think there are two separate things here, certainly with the way our setup works. Having goalies as shadow players, as part of an extended squad, as extra bodies for for training, got no problems with that, it can certainly help with development, the experience of being exposed to higher level setups, etc.

    But when a team is going away to play, whether it's to national champs or a regional tournament, then I think everyone who travels with the team should be playing. Different at senior level, even u21s, when you have a clear #1 keeper and winning is far more important than development. But especially at u13, u15, u16 level, the rep teams are as much about trying to develop future senior rep players. It's also costing parents plenty of money, over $1000 pounds per player for a trip to national champs. Sure, it's a challenge psychologically to be dropped into a level you're maybe not ready for and get smashed. But it's also a psychological challenge to travel with a team, pay a lot of money to be part of a rep team, and not get to play, to only be there in case of emergency, to even feel like you're not really part of the team. It can seem like the coach thinks 'you're not really good enough to be here, I'd prefer if you didn't play at all, I certainly don't want to risk having you on the field for close games'. Which I think can certainly be detrimental to a teenager's psyche.

    As for swapping game by game or half by half, as a keeper I'd certainly prefer not to swap at halftime. As a coach I've got no problems with keepers swapping at halftime, and typically I'll chat to the keepers about their preference for how they'll split time rather than impose one way or the other on them.
     
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  20. Ravennghorde

    Ravennghorde FHF All Time Great

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    Agree with @sanabas.
    You travel with a junior team then you should play a fair share of the time.
    Also the coaching organisations, be it County, regional etc should make clear that a keeper is a second or third choice and unlikely to be selected for competitions. This would make for happier keepers and parents. Memories of a wasted weekend with an unhappy keeper.
     
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