Umpiring board changes {Now in place}

Discussion in '[ARCHIVED 2007 to 2013] Rules and discussions' started by Neo, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. Neo

    Neo Technical Moderator

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    Hi fellow umpiring tragics! :rolleyes:

    With the large number of accumulating posts in the umpiring section, it has been decided to implement child boards (you would have seen a hint of this already that Magpie has started by moving archived FIH rules) with a number of subtopics. After looking through a couple of years worth of topics headings, this is the proposal:


    Game Management & Communication
    Development / Skills / Advice
    Resources / Equipment / Signals
    Cards
    Danger, shots on goal, hits
    Penalty Corners & in the circle
    PS / Goalkeeping
    General play outside the circle
    Interpretations / Advantage / What ifs?
    Notices, other posts out of date etc




    The remainder of the posts, including those that are less than "x" days old, can stay "loose" under the general heading. x= about 60days or perhaps when it has gone more than 4 pages back...

    The child boards will be put in place soon and then the topics will start being moved from the oldest end of the umpiring board first. We will NOT be leaving "trailing" posts behind for these wholesale changes. Watch this space for updates

    Neo
     
  2. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    Gosh, that is really complex. I'm all for organization and all, but this is OTT and is going to be a nightmare for a potential poster to decide where to best place their thread.

    Penalty corners, shots on goal, PS and goalkeepers should all be under one heading as they often overlap (i.e. when will a shot on goal result in a PS? when does a GK give up a PC?). Game management, cards and advantage are complementary. Interpretations covers pretty much everything so is unhelpfully vague. And others... well, this would be my suggestion:

    • Decisions in the circle - PC, PS, shots on goal and GK
    • Decisions outside the circle - obstruction, feet, aerials, free hits, upgrades, etc.
    • Management - cards, flow, advantage, communication
    • Resources / Equipment / Development

    Remember... keep it simple! :)

    And hey - who you callin' tragic? lol
     
  3. g9

    g9 FHF Legend

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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    The potential to drive the umpires nuts with mis-directed postings seems high, that would be my only worry about the idea really. Maybe a general posting area for anything that the poster can't decide where else to put it, then it's moved? But hopefully all these levels of categorization won't lead to reprimands for posters not getting it right or failing to look for threads under other topics first before posting a question (use the search function, yes, yes I know!).
     
  4. Magpie

    Magpie Administrator
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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    Keely the idea is to archive old posts, not move ALL current posts as some of the old discussions may not be suitable for the current rules. The old threads should be locked and if needed people unable to make posts in them.

    The posts are still made in the current section it is not up to the member to decide where to make their posts, again it is keep it simple.

    This is designed to archive old posts and make seaching/finding easier, plus it will reduce the 'reprimands' because as far as the poster is concerned the subject has not been discussed! We can point them to the old thread for light reading, but allow people to have input and have the topic discussed a new. If people have already debated their point in the old thread either restate it in the new or stay away from the new debate.

    There are many new members on this forum and they have the right to ask questions as well as debate if needed. Some of the old debates are pages long and normally depart from the subject manner, it is even confusing for old members, how would a new member feel having to wade through old stuff.

    This may take a litlle tweaking, but it should help all (apart from the people who have to move the posts and create the boards etc). As a rule of thumb the topic should be the deciding factor as to where it should go as the thread normally begins to wander at the end :)

    Note, again this is for archiving and not for new posts - remember this please.
     
  5. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    Okay, then given the Quick Search Bar limitation that I posted about in HowTo: Search The Forum, the sorting of archived posts into different child boards is very important to their likelihood of being found. Again, the taxonomy being proposed is in my view way too unwieldy and likely to discourage people from trying to look...

    unless that's the intention, which is just to shovel away all the old posts so that we can reinvent the wheel.
     
  6. g9

    g9 FHF Legend

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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}


    cool...that's what I was trying to get at!
     
  7. Neo

    Neo Technical Moderator

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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    No Keels - Although the logic of your taxonomy is appealing its not the way that members appear to think when making a post... But we'll keep an eye on the groupings/subtopics and adjust as needs be.

    The idea is to put the groups of old posts together under the sorts of headings that the members seem to want to keep on asking questions about: & to encourage members to have a look first, and it will mean you should have more time for pleasurable things in life because you (and others) wont be having to remind members so often to "Use the search Luke" (apologies to Star wars fans)
     
  8. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    ... right enough for a taxonomy of original posts, but - considering how the more interesting threads ramble around their topic (ignoring the actual off-topic stuff), and practical umpiring, in terms of "... what decisions might I need to make as this play develops" - Keely's simpler divisions seem better.
     
  9. keely

    keely FHF Legend

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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    And your proposed taxonomy is unworkable because of the immense logical overlap with the artificial categories you're trying to create - and that's from someone who posts, reads and remembers more of the Umpiring Corner than any other member. I know how the threads work, I know how the discussions develop and what the questions really mean.

    I believe very strongly that when members go have a browse through the categories as you've proposed, they won't find really everything that pertains to their question because many threads will be rather arbitrarily filed under one of the other 11 subheadings that they don't expect. I could go through many threads to illustrate examples of how the core issues raised would touch on two or more of the subcategories.

    Here's one example: Stroke for an infringement outside the circle. As you read through the thread, you see PS / Goalkeeping, Obstruction / Feet / Aerials, Cards and Penalty Corners. Maybe you could negate the middle two as being "peripheral" issues, but between PS / Goalkeeping and Penalty Corners, where do you put it? It's about a GK who gave up a PS outside the circle, but that was the wrong decision and it should have been a PC and (for once), replies were unanimous on that. So where does it belong?

    But hey, if it wasn't about getting member feedback about the subcategories and is more about getting the posts out of the way so that we can let all the new people ask the same things again, allowing the vets can add to our disgusting and lamentable 5 billion post total without saying anything... I guess it doesn't matter how you split it all up - the old posts aren't there to be looked at anyway.
     
  10. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    Thought about this for a few days, and I'm even more stongly with Keely.

    Personally, I am starting to find the new child boards in the Umpiring Corner something of a nuisance - with current umpiring discussions taking place on two or three separate boards. And with multiple boards it is too easy to start new topics without realising they are in the wrong place.

    The better solution is to archive old discussions back into the main board. For example, a few weeks after participants in the Sin Bin have fought to a standstill, the thread might be locked and moved back to wherever it started - whether Umpiring or Goalkeeping.

    And much better to un-sticky the old rules discussions, and put them back in the main Umpiring board, than hide them away in a grandchild board where no one will ever find them.
     
  11. redumpire

    redumpire FHF All Time Great
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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    Here's a suggestion for a new taxonomy (I had to look that up - good word!):

    • The current rules, as practised by 99% of umpires and players all over the world.
    • The old, much better rules for those who prefer them and want to discuss them at length.
    • Some changes to the old rules that would make the game much better according to me and my mates.
    • Why the FIH/HRB is completely useless and know nothing about hockey.

    _________________________________________________

    Seriously, I don't understand the purpose of the proposed changes. They look confusing to me. We're already getting posts in the "wrong" sections of the current set up (as diligent points out above) with general queries being posted in the "2009 rules" section etc. etc.

    I'm a great believer in the K.I.S.S. principle and, for me, the fewer sections the better. For that reason I prefer Keely's suggestion to the original proposal, but could easily be persuaded that four different sections were better. I'm not that hung up on what headings we have; just that we don't have too many of the bloody things.
     
  12. justin-old

    justin-old FHF Legend

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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    I agree (with red's suggestions/comments, above)
    (although I suspect a leg-pull regarding 'taxonomy' :rolleyes: )
     
  13. Magpie

    Magpie Administrator
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    Re: Umpiring board changes {coming soon}

    Again, posts are not to be made in the new section! It is for old stuff only. Once the topic has aged enough (and no recent posts are made) it can be moved to the archive section. The issue maybe that some current topics have inadvertentley been moved, if this is the case they can be moved back the the current part of the umpire section.

    Don't forget this is a live forum and these changes are being done without shutting the forum down so understand that there could be a few teething issues. Moving the posts is not a simple job and takes a lot of personal time.

    The reason for the 'new' posts is that each time a move is made the topic is flagged new.
     
  14. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Already we have new input to a topic that was archived too soon - only a couple of weeks since the last post on 20 March 2009. Umpiring signals photo series.

    The longer these archive boards exist, the more messy it will get. An interesting experiment, but maybe time to sweep everything back into the Umpiring Corner - before it's too late.
     
  15. Hairy

    Hairy Guest

    I agree, it's very hard to know where to look and where to post, and you have the added complication of a Sin Bin.

    This would take a lot of bandwidth, but how about leaving Umpiring/Rules discussions in the original section and creating a library which duplicates discussions by topic.

    That might mean that a single thread existed under several topic headings - unless some separation by topic and weeding of irrelevant posts were undertaken. It would be a very big task to go back through all previous postings but such a system could easily be set up to accommodate new posts. Eventually the new posts would make the topic categories, because people do come back to the same questions time and time again, either as rule is changed or because something is unresolved, and the older postings could be slotted into the appropriate topic.
     
  16. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    Sorry Hairy, but I've changed my mind since then. The archive boards are good because, whereas we used to tell new members to search (the whole umpiring board), we can now direct them to the appropriate area of the archive. Haven't you found it easier to discover the history of a topic that way?

    We just need to settle on a way of working that keeps the archive tidy, and current discussions in the main Umpiring Corner, without stifling the enthusiasm of FHF's contributors.
     

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