Conduct of play YOU MAKE THE CALLS (Collisions)

Discussion in 'Outdoor Umpiring Questions & General Chat' started by UmpireHockey.com, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. UmpireHockey.com

    UmpireHockey.com FHF All Time Great

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  2. Diligent

    Diligent FHF All Time Great
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    For me (given the non-umpire camera angle, which is my excuse for any misjudgement...) it's:
    1: Simple FH to black player on floor - not because it was red's fault, but more to encourage care, and to plant the idea that justice will be done
    2: Play on
    3: Loud whistle certainly, verbal caution likely, GC maybe
    4: Don't see enough to judge
    5: GC, probably
    6: YC - served up to the umpire on a plate, with all the trimmings (but 5 minutes is enough)
     
  3. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

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    Agree on the 1st two @Diligent then we differ.
    1. FH
    2. Play on
    3. GC
    4. YC
    5. YC
    6. YC 10 mins.
     
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  4. seal

    seal FHF Legend

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    1. FH
    2. FH against Red
    3. GC
    4. Can't really decide, doesn't look good.
    5. YC - both depending on the game as to length off
    6. YC - both depending on the game as to length off

    Both 5 and 6 are pushes on the back @careeman why did you give 10 mins for 6 and not 5 out of interest?
     
  5. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

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    Being (overly) generous perhaps I felt that in 5 she was reaching with the stick and was making some attempt to play the ball. Ok, so I know she wasn't going to get it from where she was but PC and 5 min YC seems about right to me.

    On 6 there was no attempt to play the ball and she's just shoved her over with a classic 'bent arm to straight arm' push.
     
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  6. seal

    seal FHF Legend

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    Clearly I didn't realise these were all in the same game, so that is how observant I am, based on that realisation 4 - would probably be 5 min yellow, followed by 5 min yellow for 5. At this point I'd probably have a chat with both captains, explaining the unacceptable control of collisions. 6. 10 minute yellow.
     
  7. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

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    Yep, good to manage card escalations proactively to remove the element of 'surprise'.
    Not every foul is an escalation of what has gone before but in these clips its fairly obvious the penalties appear to require an incremental approach.

    I think though if you're waiting until after clip 5 to talk to the captains you may have 'missed the bus'. Possibly after clip 4 and having already given a few bigger blows and some 'arena' umpiring and calming gestures might be a better time.

    I tried something a bit new (for me anyway) with a captain recently and it seemed to work quite well. I've used it in similar circumstances since again with good outcomes.

    I gave 2 GCs to a team quite early in a game for stick tackles and prior to these had blown big and spoken to players a couple of times already. The GCs were not unexpected but on the 2nd one I had the captain accompany me to the GC receiver and I asked for his help as otherwise 'it was going to be a long day for him and his team'. I didn't get him to speak to his team but I made it clear to everyone that what I was speaking to him about.
    Guess what. No more stick tackles. :)

    I also made a point of thanking the captain at the end of the game handshakes. I don't know if he really did anything but it doesn't hurt to recognise an improvement and make an 'ally'.
     
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  8. UmpireHockey.com

    UmpireHockey.com FHF All Time Great

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    I'm not sure I would speak to BOTH captains as it seemed the team in red/orange was the team that needed a little helpful advice. I almost hate to reveal this but, situation 6 only resulted in a free hit. I think, but am not certain (I'd have to rewatch the whole game), that only situation 4 was carded.
     
  9. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Starter

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    1 FH
    2 play on
    3 FH
    4 without getting a better view FH and maybe GC
    5 GC I think it's just incredibly clumsy
    6 YC 10 mins, looks pretty malicious to me

    Sent from my VFD 710 using Tapatalk
     
  10. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

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    On the 'clumsy' clip 5......how would you restart the game?
    FHA or PC or are you playing on and going back for the GC?

    Or something else even.

    Just curious.
     
  11. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Starter

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    Free hit, there doesn't appear to be any advantage to be played. As I said it looks like a clumsy tackle to me not intentional so I'd not make it a PC.

    Sent from my VFD 710 using Tapatalk
     
  12. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

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    Thank you @Pippinn for falling into my trap ;):D

    The GC you're awarding infers its intentional, or at least worse than a play on advantage or FH worthy foul.
    The current guidance / mandate in England (if you're not based here apologies your associations may differ) is that any card in the 23m must also be a PC (unless its purely player dissent).
    Basically you cannot give your GC and restart with a FHA.

    Therefore if you deem it worthy of a card, and you appear to, you must also award the PC at which point I question whether GC is really sending the right message for this sort of foul.
    I went YC 5 mins and still gave benefit of doubt that she was a bit clumsy and was trying to play the ball. But look at her body position straight behind the ball carrier. She's never going to get the ball from there so its high risk and she gets it badly wrong.

    If you looked up PC and YC in the hockey dictionary I would expect you'd see this clip! :)
     
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  13. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

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    Rule 12.3 Penalty Corner is awarded for

    c for an intentional offence by a defender outside the circle


    but within the 23 metres area they are defending
     
  14. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Starter

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    I umpire in England and perhaps you forget that at the bottom of the umpiring pyramid don't get a lot if any coaching, I've never been told that guidance so all that I can do is go off the odd snippet from here and a whole lot of reading the book. I'll keep your advice in mind in future.

    Sent from my VFD 710 using Tapatalk
     
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  15. careeman

    careeman FHF Super Star

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    I don't forget. I am a club and County coach and try to help out budding umpires whenever I can.
    And I wasn't poking fun at you. Apologies if it came across that way.
    I was just trying to highlight the guidance currently in place and trying to 'coach' you to think about things slightly differently.

    Where about in England are you based @pippin ?
    Maybe someone on FHF could point you in the direction of a local coach or association who may be able to help coach you in the future. If you're in the South Leagues (especially Hampshire) message me directly as this is 'my manor'!! :p:D
     
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  16. sanabas

    sanabas FHF All Time Great

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    FHF has a higher concentration of evil genius than most places, so it's good for advice.

    If you're giving a card out for a tackle inside the 23, then it is a PC too. If it's not worth a PC, it's not worth a card, either. PC & no card isn't so bad, especially at lower levels. Though most deliberate offences that get upgraded to PC are going to be worth at least a green.
     
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  17. Pippinn

    Pippinn FHF Starter

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    It's ok, it comes across better in a classroom than on a forum. I'm in the East Midlands, only do club umpiring atm done a few ladies feeder east games though.

    Sent from my VFD 710 using Tapatalk
     
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  18. Gingerbread

    Gingerbread FHF All Time Great

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  19. AnonUmp

    AnonUmp FHF Newbie

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    The Secretary of EMHUA is a passionate advocate of the ladies game - if you want support speak to him.
     
  20. AnonUmp

    AnonUmp FHF Newbie

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    Ok my views:
    1. B - "just" a foul
    2. B - but I'd look to play the advantage for the player who picked the ball up - it looks like she has a channel ahead of her and bringing it back may kill an advantage
    3. B - FHD - not malicious, not BDP, actually gets a bit of the ball so using PIT just a bit to physical for me. Warning to the pitch to be careful as 1 "bigger" one for each side
    4. C - by the 4th offence it's getting too much
    5. D - but is it a FHD or A PC? looks like attacker fouling Defender from the clip - the PC talk above confuses me
    6. D - the 10 min yellow needs a lot more context - and it is a different player for me
     

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